Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

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Balmung
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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by Balmung » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:36 am

eggmceye wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:11 pm
I have a basic working graveyard
juicy!

:cow:
I've been doodling a lot lately, but I'm no artist. More than anything it's served as a nice therapeutic exercise to cope with stress from my classes.
I usually end up making myself laugh quite a bit. Here I made a buff mino because Balrog has been on the mind. No warm up or anything before hand so it looks pretty rough even for a doodle haha!

My GF is going to lend me an old wacom pen&tablet. I'd like to try and create decent enough art for some of the cards i suggested.
minotest.png
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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:53 pm

49 new cards
Image

Dangerous Mollusc already errata'd to 1cmc

acid slime actually looks like
acidslime.png
also a bunch of tokens
tokens.png
Scrapyard Golem rules text is
Scrapyard Golem's power/HP is X/X+1 where X is number of artifacts you have when ETB.
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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:10 pm

all the new cards are on alpha at the merch

if you want to see them, click here:

http://euotopia.com/PatchMe/cards.php?set=b

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by Balmung » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:08 am

Just initial concerns I wanted to document to see how they age & highlight some stuff I think should be watched before adding into the other servers.I love card games and I can really sink my teeth into Balrog. For a small distraction inside a game, Balrog has some great diversity and a really healthy pool of viable options for players.

within ~5 mins of playing against the NPC (11 turns) Here is the boardstate.
Untitled.jpg
If you have a creature with dodge and a creature with flying, your opponent is soft locked out of attacking until they draw sorc removal. The fliers can't be attacked by grounded creatures and the dodge creatures are immune to combat damage. The lower drop fliers aren't played too often by players with larger card selections. While Balrog's "meta" changing isn't inherently bad, playing worse cards to avoid a soft lock is kind of annoying. Someone could build a deck around this lock and also include taunt and their own burn spells/traps to fortify the lock. There are 13 options for sorc removal, IMO about 5-6 being playable. I could see this soft lock getting a little frustrating for beginners / the-not-so-card-savy.

Another thing about the boardstate that has me uneasy is that I have way too much HP for a player to take down. Jaana was the first card I cast in this game. It would have likely been removed in a real game but with the synergies from jaana, gobo shaman, bloody plains, and the larger amount of creature recursion in Balrog, life gain has me a little concerned. I don't think it's a case of jaana being too busted on her own but I think a lifegain deck right now would be better than the sum of it's parts because all of the overlap and synergy. I just hope balrog doesn't divulge into playing either a lifegain/token deck or a heavy removal/midrange deck. The best thing that balrog has going for it is that a wide selection of cards/decks are viable, my main concern is having that upset.

By far the most concerning is Goblin Shaman. Goblin Shaman gives an insane amount of value, and could even be played on turn 1. It seems like the randomness of his effect was created with the intention to make it unpredictable and not as good. However, all of his abilities are very useful, especially when built around. Gobo Shaman spawning 1/1 tokens it's best ability and it's nuts. The only other creature that spawns tokens each turn is Xenktar, Naughty Wizard, a 5 drop creature. Healing your hearthstone, while not the best, still feels pretty good. Each time it heals your hearthstone you are put that much farther out of range of dying to burn. Two or three of these hearth heals go off, and now you're regaining ground from combat damage. Healing a creature is probably the worst but not when you build around it. Creature with taunt get substantially better when healed, with no loss in card advantage. Larger creatures also get much better, as they are affecting the board for a turn or two longer than they normally would. For two mana, despite the random nature of it's ability Goblin Shaman may be the best card in Balrog. Even at 4 mana, Goblin Shaman is probably worth 3 deck slots and puts Minotaur Shaman to shame.

Wall of text aside, I don't think any of this needs to be changed ASAP. I can think of some ways to combat these issues using cards I normally play, I'm just concerned that the pool of viable cards may shrink rather than expand with this next set, were it added to the other servers as is. Thanks for reading, and thank you egg for your effort into Balrog!
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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:21 am

yeh gob shaman : maybe remove dodge? but then it only works with a taunter on your team

playing the npc with jaana is always going to result in a huge hearth hp ... not that worried about playing npc tho atm? that's mostly for testing really. If balrog did have a 'slay the spire' mode that would have to be fixed. npc AI is basically non existent and could easily have bolt added to it, etc

re dodge+flying=soft lock: I discovered this and was too lazy to do anything about it. one cure would be would to make flyer attackable if there was only another dodge on board. I'll sneak that in now. (just did it, it works: so now attack the flyers if there are only dodgers on board)


ALSO in the update: once game has started you can ignite a torch instead of flipping the switch: meaning you can wander around the battlefield

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:38 am

I forgot 3 card erratas:

Mongo: now 2/2 flying for 3
Lime mephit: gets haste
eastern ogre: 3/3 for 3
errata.PNG
I also considered the following rule changes but forgot - so will do next time:
* make first strike also work on defense
* get multiple Newbie Dungeon etc team buff cards effects to stack
* multiple Neophytpe Wiz discounts stackable
* multiple Alchemy Bench discounts stackable
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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by Balmung » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:49 am

eggmceye wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:21 am
yeh gob shaman : maybe remove dodge? but then it only works with a taunter on your team

not that worried about playing npc tho atm

* get multiple Newbie Dungeon etc team buff cards effects to stack
gob shaman: I think either raising it's cost or removing dodge would be a good solution, yeah. I think it would be great even without dodge, but not busted. You wouldn't need a taunt creature out to keep it alive/relevant but you also couldn't play it on an empty board or as your first play (usually)

npc: agree, npc is just for testing. The concern was more about how fast my HP was raising. I don't think HP probably wont get into the 90s in most real games, but I don't think it needs to in order for it to become a broken deck. With 30 card decks it's easy to deck your oppo with a grindy deck, such as a lifegain deck, so unless your oppo has reassembling skeletons (and some graveyards to buff em) it might just win because the opponent has run out of stuff to do. Though, this is just a concern I haven't been able to find many player opponents.

multiple buffs: last I played, this already works (though I never played with the neophyte wizard card long enough to see if those effects stacked)

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:52 am

goblin shaman errata'd to
gobshaman.png
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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by LaughingCoyote » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:39 am

Finally had a look at the new cards. Nice work Egg & Goemon.

First thought: Blood Altar + Meteor is the new Channel + Fireball combo.

Second thought: I really want to make a viable cow deck.
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:44 am

channel fireball ! woot

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by LaughingCoyote » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:00 am

Played against Goemon a few times. Goemon's life/token deck is well countered by a burn deck.

Jaana is definitely too OP. Get rid of dodge should balance her out. She even counts herself as an ETB effect when she is played (which is crazy, but whatever. ie you get 1hp just for playing her ETB).

Bug: backstab doesn't work at all - no double damage when attacking mobs or hearthstone.
Didn't realise Blood Altar was a tap effect, so no channel fireball for me. :(

Need a "destroy all artifacts" card. Call it "Rust" or "Acid Rain"?

Bloody plains card description should say "Doesnt stack with other bloody plains"
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:34 pm

backstab was coded such that target had to be sleeping - have changed it so backstab always attacks for double damage

changing bloody plains so that it stacks

Jana loses dodge



patching this to go live to reg soon

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:23 am

The new set (set B) is live on all servs - to be clear, it's an expansion, not replacing the old set!

you can buy set B (and A) commons from the merch and now only rares (from both sets) drop as loot
you can still buy set A rares (the original set) from the merch for xtal coins

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by LaughingCoyote » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:45 pm

First strike on walls is pointless if walls cant attack?

Cuthroat junior seems to be able to avoid defending creatures and attacks the hearthstone directly? Is that the ability of backstab? 2x damage + ignore defending mobs? Or was it because my defending creature had dodge? How does dodge work exactly? Can only be damaged by direct damage spell cards? Any other conditions?

Lime mephit is OP. 3 mana for 3/2 with haste. Compare that with Wil o Wisp - 2 mana for 3/1 and dies automatically. Will o wisp should probably be 4/1 or something.
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by LaughingCoyote » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:16 pm

Also noticed: cuthroat junior doesnt drop from monsters or chests, despite being a common and available for gp at the card merchant. I have 20+ copies of everything else from chest/monster drops.

Also figured out what was causing misclicks - the card title text is considered part of the card when you select a target - even if it overlaps the tile of the card above it.
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by Balmung » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:59 pm

now that I've had a chance to really dig into the new balrog set, I would like to weigh in on a few things...
eggmceye wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:34 pm
backstab was coded such that target had to be sleeping - have changed it so backstab always attacks for double damage
I think this was a mistake, to put it bluntly. If lime mephit is OP, then junior cutthroat is on it's own separate level. king shit of fuck mountain Much like lime mephit and will o wisp, it has haste which allows it to potentially attack through an already developed board state. However, backstab is where junior cutthroat really gets nasty. Because backstab doubles damage, junior cutthroat is even stronger than the previously mentioned monsters. It is miles ahead of any removal/burn spells spells at 2 mana, and any buffs it could be getting also get doubled in effectiveness. Simply put, junior cutthroat trumps most 5+ cost cards in the game for simply 2 mana. In MTG this would be a 2 mana 2/1 with haste and double strike. Personally I would like to see backstab changed back to dealing x2 damage to sleeping monsters rather than cut throat's mana cost adjusted. This change has warped balrog's meta.
LaughingCoyote wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:45 pm
Lime mephit is OP. 3 mana for 3/2 with haste. Compare that with Wil o Wisp - 2 mana for 3/1 and dies automatically. Will o wisp should probably be 4/1 or something.

Nothing at 2 mana should have 4 power without any kind of buff imo. 4 damage has the capability to kill 4-6 cost creatures. Will o wisp's "downside" also plays nice with bloody plains, a fairly used card. If junior cutthroat gets nerfed and will o wisp gets buffed, we wouldn't have changed much about the state of balrog. While I do agree lemon mephit is fairly strong, I don't think it is OP or needs to be changed. With only having 2 toughness, lime mephit can be killed by 1 & 2 cost sorcery cards (XMP, VF, and lightning strike) on top of being defeated by a good share of creatures. Traps and any monster that isn't sleeping will put a stop to lime mephit's threat to a heart stone before it even hits the field. In this way I think it's pretty comparable to VF. It stays on the field, has a decent body to it, but also costs 1 more mana. Also following this logic, will o wisp is really nothing more than a functional copy of VF that has great synergy with cards that trigger when things die. A safe move would be to adjust lime mephit to 3/1 or 2/2, but I'm not sure a change is necessary.

Also, LC mentioned that unholy flight is over costed in the discord. I agree, but unsure what it should be costed at. My gut says 3-4 because ignoring board state for a turn is quite huge.(it's an effect that will likely be used to end games) This would also fall inline with other cards that can heavily alter the momentum of game such as wrath of god, VOG, or tribal artifacts.

Mino chieftain is also a bit over costed, He could probably do with being a 6 cost creature.

Cows and bovines being different creature types feels a bit weird, though it could be left alone for future design space depending on how much you care about developing balrog

Wanting to end this on a high note, I hope my feedback never comes off as entitled or pissy. Balrog is surprisingly balanced and healthy with the perfect amount of complexity in deck building and game play choices for a small project inside of EUO. You've done an excellent job with it, egg. It's very approachable because it's easy to learn, builds off of games players are likely to be familiar with, and players probably have a stockpile of cards from chests to add to their starter deck. As a huge fan of both EUO and card games, it's a blast playing Balrog with other community members. I hope that with my experience with MTG I can provide some useful insight to keep Balrog going this strong for years to come.

PS
would it be possible for me to design, code, and submit cards to you to be implemented into the game? Even if most of them rot and don't get added into the game, It would be a fun programming exercise.
Last edited by Balmung on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by LaughingCoyote » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:33 pm

Ok, I think I agree re Lime Mephit, Cutthroat and Wisp. Cuthroat is OP. You could do 12 damage by 2nd turn with 1 bluish potion, 1 cutthroat, 1 brown potion, while most decks havent even got a mob down yet.

turn 1: bluish potion, cutthroat junior, attack.
turn 2: cuthroat junior attack, brown potion, attack again.

Still think Wisp is weaker than it should be, but hard to buff without making it op either. How about making wisp 1 mana, 2/1, haste, dies end of turn? Or maybe the whole dies-at-end-of-turn mechanic sucks? Make Wisp have dodge instead? 2 mana, 3/1, dodge instead of "haste and dies at end of turn"?

I think mana 4 for unholy flight is reasonable, ditto Mino chieftain for 6.

In regards to bovines vs cows: are all cows bovines, but not all bovines cows?
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Sat May 09, 2020 11:04 am

The only change I'm doing right now is backstab, which is going back to "target must be asleep to get 2x dmg" - I agree that was a hasty change. and only one card affected, cutthroat jr

after that dust settles can make some other tweaks

Unsure what to do about 'wall of swords' (which is a copy of wall of razors from mtg)

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by eggmceye » Fri May 15, 2020 10:39 am

wall of swords is really useless isn't it

should first strike work on defense too? following cards would either become useful or overpowered
* wall of swords
* samuari skeletun
* baby beholder
* crouching tiger
* rooftop assassin

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Re: Balrog, the EUO collectible card game

Post by Balmung » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:38 am

first strike working defensively would be nice, but unsure how strong the cards would become. Over all I would think it would lengthen games which is good. Crouching tiger and sword golem are little concerning though. I would think they would pretty much have to be killed by sorcery or effect damage. Doing a quick skim of creatures in my card chest it looks like there aren't a lot of contenders with them the 4-5 mana cost range that could beat them in combat. They might end up ruling the board much like cutthroat jr. I think the safest move would be to just change wall of swords, it also seems like a lot less work? What might be useful is creating a way for creatures to deal their combat damage (or maybe a static amount of damage) to an attacker before combat damage as a separate mechanic. This would allow for wall of swords to effectively have first strike but also allow for more design space. Call it reposte? 4 cost artifact, tap to give target creature reposte until the end of the next turn? It could make for a useful trap as well.(edit: I think this already exists as eye for an eye, whoops) Doing all that negates my less work argument though LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON.

Here's another cool card idea

heart of Xile
4 mana
artifact
pay 2 life: create a 1/1 skeleton token

if you really wanna be mean, make the effect automatic like jaana/gobo shaman/mino shaman so it can screw over players if they aren't careful.

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