The fighter class - What are your opinions

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Severian
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The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Severian »

I would like to know what everyone thinks of the fighter class in comparison with the other classes. I am of the opinion that its a class with very (and perhaps too) little flexibility, and really doesn't measure-up to other classes like rogue and mage.

The benefits of the fighter class:
- primarily focuses on the strength stat, which gives a fighter higher HP and weight allowance
- has tanking stance which can make it a good tank (however, it is questionable as to whether a tank is even necessary, as other classes - if well geared can take on this role almost as well and certainly to a sufficient level)
- cleave special, which is nice, but is not particularly a game breaking move (unlike say backstab)
- flurry special, which can deal nice damage, but has the same limitions of above, and can become useless when facing many enemies

The not-so-bright sides of being a fighter:
- though a specialist tanking class, is not important at all since other classes can tank sufficiently well and everyone can use battle roar and taunt
- fighter dps isn't great, and in fact, its probably one of the lowest among all the classes
- can't AoE; coupled with the above, it means it take a while to kill packs of enemies
- there is generally no versatilty and you will be relying on potions, scrolls and various other items (except maybe bash, which every class gets as well)

These are just some of my thoughts ... please just post yours and try not to flame or get hostile. Thanks.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by eggmceye »

Good post, and try not to talk about mages. Do also talk about bs being OP. I am reluctant to nerf it until rogues got something in return however. Not touching mages with a 10 ft pole. Not considering making roar fighter only - this doesn't have to be wow.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Onyxt »

eggmceye wrote:Good post, and try not to talk about mages. Do also talk about bs being OP. I am reluctant to nerf it until rogues got something in return however. Not touching mages with a 10 ft pole. Not considering making roar fighter only - this doesn't have to be wow.
My suggestion for back stab, would add a 10 second cool-down to it; so it'll slow down the morons that run, hide and back stab. Then either make machetes off hand only (their back stab damage is outrageous, and I've been saying this since they got put in), or their back stab do like x7 damage instead so its roughly the same as rondels or short swords.

Roar is also a great ability for any class, whether you're soloing or fighting in a group. It allows for strategic luring, and it can be used to save over-zealous lower levels that are tagging along.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Severian »

I forgot to add another problem with the fighter class:

- Aside from thunderclap (which costs 100 rage), a fighter cannot as easily lockdown targets like the other classes can. Rogues can gouge, monks can sleeping fist, mages can IZH (and more). This is another huge limitation since fighters have no real way to control groups.



I'll also re-state the suggestions I made earlier in the ideas thread for the fighter class here (slightly tweaked):
- Stance dancing ... allow different stances that fighters can adopt so as to be able to switch from being more defensive to being more offensive, and vice versa.
- Shieldbash ... having block and tactics as requirements (i.e., a fighter-only skill), this skill could be the fighter's equilivent to a rogue's gouge, a monk's sleeping fist, etc.
- Berserker rage ... a skill that costs a fixed (not %) amount of hp in exchange for a fixed amount of rage. Think of it as a person inflicting damage upon themselves in order to build rage. This skill could be usable by all classes, but should have a fixed hp cost that is pretty high so that only fighters (with their high hp) can properly benefit from it.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Onyxt »

Severian wrote:I forgot to add another problem with the fighter class:

- Aside from thunderclap (which costs 100 rage), a fighter cannot as easily lockdown targets like the other classes can. Rogues can gouge, monks can sleeping fist, mages can IZH (and more). This is another huge limitation since fighters have no real way to control groups.
Charge is your version of it, it puts the hamsting debuff that restricts their movement for 4 seconds. Its deadly in pvp.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by eggmceye »

some stats :geek:


LVL 40+ chars created on reg created in 2011:

Races:
human: 16
dwarf: 8
gnome: 7
bloodkin: 6
shadow folk: 5
half orc: 2
half troll: 2
draconian: 1

Classes:
Mage:100% : 8
Monk:100% : 5
Rogue:100% : 4
Priest:100% : 3
PLUS may other combinations that only had 1 counted and thus aren't shown


LVL 100+ chars on PD created in 2011 (and still alive)

Races:
human: 20
draconian: 11
gnome: 9
dwarf: 8
half troll: 8
bloodkin: 7
skeletun: 5
half orc: 4
shadow folk: 4

Classes:
Mage:100%, Priest:75% : 11
Rogue:100%, Priest:75% : 5
Fighter:100%, Priest:100% : 4
Mage:100%, Priest:100% : 4
Fighter:100%, Priest:75% : 4
Fighter:100%, Priest:29% : 3
Fighter:75%, Priest:100% : 2
Mage:100% : 2
Rogue:100%, Priest:29% : 2
Monk:100%, Priest:29% : 2
Rogue:100%, Monk:70%, Priest:30% : 2
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by eggmceye »

so there aren't many fighter experts posting X-D
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Akyla »

Make 2h weapons more viable. Currently 1h weapons have more speed and allow for a shield, which boosts whichever stat PLUS block %.

Also, concerning the thingy Egg just posted, most fighters go priest just for the mani spam. I believe priest is the ONLY viable dual-class since there are no limitations on it whatsoever. But that is more dual class discussion I guess...

Possibly re-examine damage per second (or whatever) of fighter weapons... A quick fix I guess. Rogues can attack so fast that it doesn't matter if they hit crap damage, while a fighter with a HUGE axe attacks so slowly they will fall behind, even though they hit much harder. Make fighters weapon attack speed based on 1h/2h+str?

Also, the str/dex ratio makes characters quite cookie cutter. Everyone wants the same gears and same stats. The only difference is personal preference and avatars atm.

Possibly make it so there are advanced classes... IE once a fighter becomes level 100, it may choose between being a 'tank' or being a 'berserker'. Could do this with all classes I suppose.

Mace special sucks ass. Goes for priests too.

Heavy armors do nothing really at late game. It is all about the stat+ and tint. Fighters are the only ones who may wear heavy armors yet what is the point?
eggmceye wrote:so there aren't many fighter experts posting X-D
Well, what is your take on the situation if I might ask?
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by eggmceye »

fighters are crap
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Severian »

eggmceye wrote:fighters are crap
T.T
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by eggmceye »

I can tart them up a bit (again)
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Severian »

eggmceye wrote:I can tart them up a bit (again)
yes please ... that would be nice ... what did you have in mind?

The weapon speed idea is interesting, but i think a tie in to tactics would be more fighter-specific, or else it would be a general boost to all (melee) classes. Maybe something like every 10% tactics gives a 0.05 weapon speed boost for a maximum weapon speed boost of 0.5. Not really sure this is a good idea actually.

My general opinion is to boost the block and tactics skills somehow, preferably with new abilities.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Akyla »

Personally I'm not sure block needs a power up. A 1h and a magical shield are better than a 2h weapon, just for survivability + bonus stats. If a shield grants +30 STR it grants ratio damage of 5 levels. These 5 levels of stats cannot be gotten at all using a 2h. Here's food for thought: A broad sword and a +30 STR shield VS a claymore alone (both with 75/25 ratios, including enhanced stats)...

Sacrificing an enchanted shield plus block skill to deal more damage with a 2h weapon seems feasible IMHO. Maybe a 25% chance to double hit? Still doubt that would be worth it.

Another example is enchanted weapons. Rogues are the top dogs with these, seeing as how they attack so fast with TWO enchants that they both go off like a machine gun. What is the point behind having a SLOW enchanted weapon... addy claymore IJO (for example) compared to a copper cleaver IJO? (fastest fighter weapon available, I believe) While that claymore does decent damage, the cleaver would tear up that balron MUCH faster due to IJO firing MUCH more frequently. Speed > damage in every circumstance I can think of off the top of my head. That AEP cleaver + a decent shield will keep you alive longer to fight compared to trying to get the kill quicker with a +9 2h.

Either way fighters do craploa damage. I guess flurry with a claymore is ok, drink a khaki to even compete to a rogue's damage... at least for ten seconds. :D Don't get me wrong, not trying to down other classes, just using them as a comparison.

But yeh, something to do with tactics would be quite nice, especially since AS doesn't really do much of anything. But even if something was done with tactics (attack speed, for example), that would affect both 1h and 2h weapons. And ATM 2h weapons suck. I guess a dwarf with massive amounts of STR/HP are ok....

Where is that table that had the most DPS? Is it up-to-date? Also, might it be possible to add a survivability-type column... Like 2 rondels AEP would stun once every second on average? A vampy would give back how much hp every minute? Things like that should be considered, but then again this is only about fighters. I remember that claymores supposedly did the most DPS or DPM whatever it was, but in-game hitting 70 damage twice in the time it takes to hit 120 damage once seems like a much more feasible option.
eggmceye wrote:Classes:
Mage:100%, Priest:75% : 11
Rogue:100%, Priest:75% : 5
Fighter:100%, Priest:100% : 4
Mage:100%, Priest:100% : 4
Fighter:100%, Priest:75% : 4
Fighter:100%, Priest:29% : 3
Fighter:75%, Priest:100% : 2
Mage:100% : 2
Rogue:100%, Priest:29% : 2
Monk:100%, Priest:29% : 2
Rogue:100%, Monk:70%, Priest:30% : 2
I bet the 70% monk is gone now that aspects only work with U/A. I fail to understand why aspects were nerfed yet the only viable dual-class (priest) hasn't even been touched upon. 25 INT + 1 piece of vigour + mani spam = near-endless heals. That is much more OP IMHO compared to yeti aspect. How come there is no rogue/mage, fighter/mage, monk/rogue, etc etc. Because anything/priest is OP.

Yeh, crap long post. Oops?
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Akyla »

Here's a thought: If rogues deal upwards of 1-1.5k damage with a backstab, give fighters 1/4th the tactics skill chance to deal a DEVASTATING blow that would deal 500% damage outright...

Sooooo 100% tactics = 25% chance for DEVASTATING blow = 500% damage bonus. So if a halbred usually deals 100 damage it would deal 500 damage 25% of the time. Nowhere near the machete backstab bonus which makes it powerful still but during the time it takes to run/stealth/bs a lucky fighter might pull off 2 of these.

Still doesn't fix slower weapons being crap though.
Last edited by Akyla on Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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When the first living thing existed, I was there waiting.
When the last living thing dies, my job will be finished.
Next thing you're going to be moaning that I ought to get a scythe...
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Severian »

Akyla wrote:Personally I'm not sure block needs a power up. A 1h and a magical shield are better than a 2h weapon, just for survivability + bonus stats. If a shield grants +30 STR it grants ratio damage of 5 levels. These 5 levels of stats cannot be gotten at all using a 2h. Here's food for thought: A broad sword and a +30 STR shield VS a claymore alone (both with 75/25 ratios, including enhanced stats)...
Yeah, there isn't much point to 2h fighter weapons since they are so slow.
Akyla wrote:What is the point behind having a SLOW enchanted weapon... addy claymore IJO (for example) compared to a copper cleaver IJO? (fastest fighter weapon available, I believe) While that claymore does decent damage, the cleaver would tear up that balron MUCH faster due to IJO firing MUCH more frequently. Speed > damage in every circumstance I can think of off the top of my head. That AEP cleaver + a decent shield will keep you alive longer to fight compared to trying to get the kill quicker with a +9 2h.
really what counts is dps. in terms of enchanted weapons, the fire rate is low enough so that speed differences of around 0.5 don't really mean that much. the enchanted weapon spell effect is typically just an added bonus which helps your dps along a little. The major difference with rogues is that they dual-wield, and twice the number of hit will make a significant difference, as you've probably noticed.
Akyla wrote:Either way fighters do craploa damage. I guess flurry with a claymore is ok, drink a khaki to even compete to a rogue's damage... at least for ten seconds. :D Don't get me wrong, not trying to down other classes, just using them as a comparison.
even only you could buy khaki potions from town npcs or something (but then everyone including rogues and monks would buy them and become even more op relative to fighters).
Akyla wrote:Where is that table that had the most DPS? Is it up-to-date? Also, might it be possible to add a survivability-type column... Like 2 rondels AEP would stun once every second on average? A vampy would give back how much hp every minute? Things like that should be considered, but then again this is only about fighters. I remember that claymores supposedly did the most DPS or DPM whatever it was, but in-game hitting 70 damage twice in the time it takes to hit 120 damage once seems like a much more feasible option.
the weapons.txt file in the dat direction should have all this information (but generate your own avg dps column, the dps column there is based on max dps and is wrong for tridents and machetes). As for enchanted weapon spell fire rates, this is not disclosed anywhere, and if your keen to know, you have to run your own experiements to find out.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Akyla »

Severian wrote:
Akyla wrote:Where is that table that had the most DPS? Is it up-to-date? Also, might it be possible to add a survivability-type column... Like 2 rondels AEP would stun once every second on average? A vampy would give back how much hp every minute? Things like that should be considered, but then again this is only about fighters. I remember that claymores supposedly did the most DPS or DPM whatever it was, but in-game hitting 70 damage twice in the time it takes to hit 120 damage once seems like a much more feasible option.
the weapons.txt file in the dat direction should have all this information (but generate your own avg dps column, the dps column there is based on max dps and is wrong for tridents and machetes). As for enchanted weapon spell fire rates, this is not disclosed anywhere, and if your keen to know, you have to run your own experiements to find out.
Eh mostly just bringing up that information so Egg has something other to consider than damage. Survivability is a huge deal!
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Severian »

Akyla wrote:
Severian wrote:
Akyla wrote:Where is that table that had the most DPS? Is it up-to-date? Also, might it be possible to add a survivability-type column... Like 2 rondels AEP would stun once every second on average? A vampy would give back how much hp every minute? Things like that should be considered, but then again this is only about fighters. I remember that claymores supposedly did the most DPS or DPM whatever it was, but in-game hitting 70 damage twice in the time it takes to hit 120 damage once seems like a much more feasible option.
the weapons.txt file in the dat direction should have all this information (but generate your own avg dps column, the dps column there is based on max dps and is wrong for tridents and machetes). As for enchanted weapon spell fire rates, this is not disclosed anywhere, and if your keen to know, you have to run your own experiements to find out.
Eh mostly just bringing up that information so Egg has something other to consider than damage. Survivability is a huge deal!
Surviving is mainly dependent on MR, being smart with pulls, and also knowing when to heal or hide. But relating to CCing (i.e., blinds/sleep/etc), I have noted earlier that fighters don't have one (a part from the near useless thunderclap) and should get one - shieldbash was the idea i suggested. In terms of weapon enchants, I'm not sure how much one AEP weapon out of the two really helps, unless used in conjunction with gouge.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Akyla »

Early game a fighter/rogue can just get a vampy +0 weapon to survive.

Shieldbash wouldn't help out much early game seeing as how block is a pain to raise, if it was based on block skill. Honestly between charge and special weapon attack I don't have much rage to spare! But it would be nice to seize/charge/shieldbash/rinse/repeat in pvp rofl. Kinda reminds me of when mages could just XJ/AEP/repeat for 10 minutes straight to a fighter.

It sounds pretty cool to be honest but I admittedly have tunnel vision concerning this subject. It is the weapons/SPEED/damage that suck ass. Mages can get a barbed/vampy/etc. staff and VOG an entire group of mobs to get back hp or make em bleed, etc. (but their damage is based solely on INT and skills) Rogues can grab two enchants and blast away like mad, without even using specials. Fighters can... do what exactly? What separates them other than mindlessly bashing away, which rogues/monks do much better due to speed? They have more HP? This is why I'm focused on fighter weapons and why they suck. While a shield bash may be nice for 1h, 95% of fighters use 1h due to SPEED/BLOCK/+STAT. Just like 90% of fighters use POLEARMS, due to the STR bonus ratio. Just like 99% of dual classes are PRIEST. Def is pointless compared to MR. In EUO you are free to build yer character however you choose, yet it is still cookie-cutter due to lack of viable options.

Shieldbash would be a great bonus but wouldn't fix the problem.

Maybe my focus is wrong. What exactly is the problem?
eggmceye wrote:fighters are crap
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When the first living thing existed, I was there waiting.
When the last living thing dies, my job will be finished.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Severian »

Akyla wrote:Early game a fighter/rogue can just get a vampy +0 weapon to survive.

Shieldbash wouldn't help out much early game seeing as how block is a pain to raise, if it was based on block skill. Honestly between charge and special weapon attack I don't have much rage to spare! But it would be nice to seize/charge/shieldbash/rinse/repeat in pvp rofl. Kinda reminds me of when mages could just XJ/AEP/repeat for 10 minutes straight to a fighter.

It sounds pretty cool to be honest but I admittedly have tunnel vision concerning this subject. It is the weapons/SPEED/damage that suck ass. Mages can get a barbed/vampy/etc. staff and VOG an entire group of mobs to get back hp or make em bleed, etc. (but their damage is based solely on INT and skills) Rogues can grab two enchants and blast away like mad, without even using specials. Fighters can... do what exactly? What separates them other than mindlessly bashing away, which rogues/monks do much better due to speed? They have more HP? This is why I'm focused on fighter weapons and why they suck. While a shield bash may be nice for 1h, 95% of fighters use 1h due to SPEED/BLOCK/+STAT. Just like 90% of fighters use POLEARMS, due to the STR bonus ratio. Just like 99% of dual classes are PRIEST. Def is pointless compared to MR. In EUO you are free to build yer character however you choose, yet it is still cookie-cutter due to lack of viable options.

Shieldbash would be a great bonus but wouldn't fix the problem.
(1) the issue isn't really with early game play, it has to do with later game play ... in fact, for early game, things are probably more balanced
(2) you can focus on weapon speed, that is certainly your choice, but if all your looking for is similar dps rates, then a simple adjustment of weapon damage and speeds is enough ... in which case all you have to say was: "REBALANCE FIGHTER WEAPON DAMAGE AND SPEEDS SO THAT FIGHTER DPS IS ON PAR WITH THE DPS OF OTHER CLASSES (TAKING INTO ACCOUNT ENCHANT TRIGGERS)"
(3) the problem with the above is that its an ugly fix which would result in logical contradictions like a short being slower than a long sword ...
(4) the idea here is to brainstorm and suggest a variety of ideas so that egg has a variety of options to consider before he makes any sort of decision on a change (if one will be made at all).

At the moment i think perhaps the following could be introduced:
- tactics change: instead of the AS and DEF bonus, now applies a (tactics_skill /1.5) % chance to strike an additional blow with each hit. so at 100% tactics, each hit has a 66% chance of striking an enemy second time
- shieldbash: costs 50 rage, requires 100% block, and to have a shield equipped; causes an AEP effect
- massive cleave: costs 100 rage, requires 100% axes, 100% swords 100% polearms, and to have a 2h weapon equipped; works like a normal cleave but does 300% damage.
- savage flurry: costs 100 rage, requires 100% axes, 100% swords 100% polearms, and to have a 2h weapon equipped; works like a normal flurry but each strike now does 150% damage
- blood ritual: costs 500hp and generates 35 rage; has a 5sec cooldown
- berserk stance: requires a fighter weapon to be equipped to use (like tanking stance); increases dmg done by 25% and increases dmg taken by 25%
- dps with axes is quite low relative to the other fighter weapon types as well and may need to be re-balanced: perhaps have all fighter weapons given an 80:20 str to dex ratio for damage optimisation, and adjust all weapons, so that those of one type are distructed evenly across the entire dps range with no clear weapon type being superior to another.
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Re: The fighter class - What are your opinions

Post by Eclips »

Counter attacks might be a nice addition.

Also, some passive bonuses might be nice for two handed weapons. You can't tell me you are able to go on like nothing happened when someone comes up and swings a war hammer at your skull.
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