PvP thoughts...

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PvP thoughts...

Post by DrBiggie » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:36 pm

Ok I do a lot of PvP, to the dismay of a lot of newbs that probably got tricked into typing /pvp 1. Throughout the course of PvPing all day every day, I've noticed a few things that I personally think could be changed to make PvP a lot more fun.

Disclaimer: egg I don't know if you care about PvP at all, these are not complaints, just suggestions. But I'm sure I'll start a class war anyway.

1. Block is overpowered. Even for rogues. And the honest truth is that I don't see much of a difference between 25 block and 100 block. The logic behind my theory is simple and maybe flawed: If I don't use a shield in PvP, I lose. This means I cant use a bow, I cant use shortswords. I have to gear up like a fighter and just deal with the fact that all my rogue skills are useless PvP. I feel like all of my weapons should be plausible choices when it comes to PvP. If I want to dual wield shortswords +8 I shouldn't get wasted in the same fight that I would win with a shield and a rapier +2. Now I don't wanna be the guy who throws out a problem without proposing a solution, so here's one option: Limit the amount of times you can block in a set time period. When someone with a shield is in the middle of a crowd of attackers, he shouldn't be blocking 75% of the attacks from everyone simultaneously, while still attacking. Also, and maybe it's already like this, but I think the block skill of the defender should be compared to the weapons skill of the attacker when block is determined. That way when I have 25 block as a rogue I don't block 50-75% of the attacks from someone with 100 longswords.

2. Mages can cast when they run. It's just not fair. And I know someone is gonna say "I can't cast when I run, I have to stop for a second", but that's not what I mean. When a rogue or a fighter uses a ranged weapon, there is a cooloff time after you move. You have to have been standing still for around 1-2 seconds before you can attack, or it just misses every time. This means that mages run around in big circles casting XC and giggling while rogues and fighters either stand still with a ranged weapon, or hopelessly chase after them hoping to land a hit or two. Once again, my solution: Make mages fumble sorcery spells with the same movement cooldown as ranged weapons have.

/me braces himself
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Rusty76 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:49 pm

I agree on both points. Those aren't just PvP problems, they are problems in PvM too.

There is little discernible difference between 25 block and 100 block when it comes to fighting monsters. As for PvP, Someone that is dual wielding should be guaranteed at least one hit per attack when facing a opponent with a shield (one hit blocked by the shield and the other that gets by the shield). Also a very good weapon (one with a high AS bonus) should be able to penetrate a crappy shield (no or very low +) and do partial damage even if the player with the shield successfully blocks. Also the 2 combatant's dex and str should be taken into consideration. There needs to be a chance of penetrating/getting around a shield based on the attacker's stat bonus for their weapon type versus the shield user's stat bonus. Basically what I'm saying is that a level 400 fighter with 1500 str should be able to easily break through the shield of a level 50 fighter with only 200 str or a level 400 rogue with 1500 dex should be able to easily get around the shield of a level 50 fighter with only 100 dex. The bonus from stats of the attacker should be compared to the bonus from stats of the shield user to determine how effective the attempt to penetrate/get around the shield is.

The movement thing with ranged attacks (guaranteed miss if you shoot immediately after moving) is just not right at all. It really limits the usefulness using ranged attacks. If you lure melee mobs toward you to shoot, by the time you can get your shot off they are already up on you, and that's completely not the point of using ranged. Maybe ranged attacks can be reworked as a 'spell' like special move or bash? That way they would be 'cast' and would work the way mages use spells.

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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:24 pm

Point 1) Agree that the block mechanics need to be re-worked. At the very least the curve should be worked - 25% block is almost as good as 100% block. Although this wouldn't really solve the other problems as it is very easy to train up - but at least it would balance the Foil + Block combination a bit and give rogues more incentive to dual class.

Point 2) Wasn't Ranged intentionally nerfed that way?
"1) balance: I can take XC out. It's cheezy anyway. Ranged can be made harder by dropping the range and making the move/miss delay a little longer. " - eggmceye 2004
I can't remember the original reason for it... is it still a problem?
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Keighn » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:19 am

I don't supose you guys have counted the # of blocks per minute per 5 or 10 points of block have you?
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by DrBiggie » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:53 pm

Of course not!
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Heikki » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:04 pm

Mages can cast when they run. It's just not fair.
Amen! I allso hate mages that uses server response time/lag as "feature" in pvp.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by DarkIllusionist » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:53 pm

I think the reason they made it so bows couldn't be fired while moving is because bow wielders (Primarily rogues) have high DEX, and thus can (could) run circles around a fighter forever.

Anyway, it is a bit unfair, mages shouldn't be able to run circles around fighters either.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Owls » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:57 am

Well now everyone is running around on horses for pvp. This makes quite a descent balance problem between the classes. Now mages can run circles around enemy fighters (without horses), while hitting them with XC. It basically leveled the speed factor between all classes, which I personally don't like to much. As a rogue, speed was one of the main reason I choose the class. Not just to get around faster, but for pvp. Now it puts a sour taste in my mouth whenever I try and fight a mage who just jumps on his horse and runs away while XC'ing me before I even get close.

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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Keighn » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:08 am

I don't see the problem. It's the reg server. Now if egg someday decides to ditch one of the servers and make a pure pvp pd server then maybe there is some merit to equality. My biggest thought about pvp whining is opt to be /pvp 0 or never hit /pvp 1 in the first place. This does make me want to retest blocking though but I'm sure the formula egg has written up is sound on its own without testing.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Rufio » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:57 am

DrBiggie wrote:2. Mages can cast when they run. It's just not fair. And I know someone is gonna say "I can't cast when I run, I have to stop for a second", but that's not what I mean. When a rogue or a fighter uses a ranged weapon, there is a cooloff time after you move. You have to have been standing still for around 1-2 seconds before you can attack, or it just misses every time. This means that mages run around in big circles casting XC and giggling while rogues and fighters either stand still with a ranged weapon, or hopelessly chase after them hoping to land a hit or two. Once again, my solution: Make mages fumble sorcery spells with the same movement cooldown as ranged weapons have.

/me braces himself
Cant you just run too with your bow? And if there was a cooldown our mages would suck at PvM. It takes long enough to cast XC let alone adding a cool down. :cry:
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Sharingan » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:25 am

I completely agree with block. It is WAY overpowered. It just doesn't make sense that you're able to block 50% of the time and attack at the same time too!!! The block problem could be solved if it was on a push button basis. Kinda like how bash is its own special move. You would also have to block in the direction you're getting attacked in. Yea I know its going to be harder blah blah. Maybe after a successful block, your next attack could be 50% stronger?

I just don't like how block is right now. and never have.

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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by DrBiggie » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:38 am

Keighn wrote:My biggest thought about pvp whining is opt to be /pvp 0 or never hit /pvp 1 in the first place.
Like I said I'm not really complaining, just putting out suggestions. Egg doesn't play much and if nobody ever made any comments or suggestions because they were afraid of getting called whiners, then not much would get changed.
Rufio wrote:Cant you just run too with your bow?
No. Did you read my post before you copied it?
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Keighn » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:58 am

I'm more frustrated with ranged than block. Freaking bows often miss until the target is targeted. And sometimes if you're extremely fast with with shortbow or sling you miss multi shots anyway. And lets not even bother with the dual sling action.... gah.

Bows can miss too much.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Heniek » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:46 am

This has been brought up on forums few times in past, and now again kinda interesing topic is turning into "why mages are so overpowered" :roll:

As I wrote previously on forums - there is no class which would be overpowered, both pvp and pvm are quite balanced. Every class has it's strong points, and weak points. Whole trick is, to use use your strong points against weak points of your enemy. Just because you're losing in pvp, that doesn't necessarily means that your opponent's class is overpowered, but your pvp tactic(or skill) is not good enough(no offense to anyone). Perfect example:
Now it puts a sour taste in my mouth whenever I try and fight a mage who just jumps on his horse and runs away while XC'ing me before I even get close.
If that tactic isn't working, change it. As a rogue you have a lot of possibilites. Use ranged. If your enemy tries to hex you, wear MR stuff. Use barbed bow. If you have any, use AEP enchanted bow. Use foils(disarm!). Combine ranged with foils. Just try new tactics, instead of repeatly trying to whack your opponent with rondels.

Again as I said, every class has it's strong and weak points. Mages have great spells, but they're usually very low on hp, and they cast very slowly. Rogues are fast, they can use ranged and foils(and disarm is great special attack in pvp), and they can backstabb. Fighters can't use ranged(well they can, but they suck at it), but they have shitload of hp, and awesome special attacks(cleave and flurry - especially cleave is useful in pvp).

Instead of being stick to one thing, and being suprised why it isn't working, try new things

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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by DrBiggie » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:54 am

No Heniek you miss my point. What I'm saying is not that I lose PvP or don't change my tactics, my point is that I am forced into the only possible tactic against fighters/rogues or mages because of block and a mages ability to cast and run. The ONLY way to win a fight against another rogue or fighter is to use a shield. Without a shield you lose. Period. The ONLY way to win a fight against a mage is to use either an AEP bow or a barbed bow. If you don't have either, you're out of luck. It would be awesome if we were forced to adjust tactics on a fight by fight basis depending on what our opponent does, but what I'm saying is that you never have to adjust tactics, because everyone always does the same thing. They always do the same thing because it is the best possible choice in every scenario. That isn't tactics. That's imbalance.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Heikki » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:02 pm

Nerfing fighters/rogues parry and making mages XC to adjacent attack spell (Should still be ranged in pvm) would balance PVP?

Maybe summon horse should unequip weared items on hands?

Maybe 5 x longer melee/ranged/magic cooldowns on horses? (This will force to use horses only for riding)
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by DarkIllusionist » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:04 pm

The problem with adjacent attack spells is not the range, but the fact that you have to be next to your opponent, but that you have to cast the spell, then choose the direction.

Anyway, the point is, it generally casts slower than normal ranged spells because of this, and its especially annoying to do when your opponent is running, and would make XC very underpowered. Its already generally weaker than VOG don't make it worse.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by goemon » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:45 am

i agree with totally with biggie! and to be honest, i think making block trigger less is a nice trade off for mages running and casting. :P

and heikki, people fought with horses way back when! but, yeah maybe a delay because if you think about not many people would be able to do much with a weapon in one hand and a horse....rope...thing in the other. how about no delay on a horse, but you cant use specials, things like parry and block, and you need one hand open?

that way people usually wouldnt use them for pvp (sept maybe to fight differently) but you could still fight on a horse just in case you may need to.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by Heniek » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:26 am

@ DrBiggie

My point was, that you're not forced to use only one tactic. If you use only one, it doesn't mean other can't be effective. We tested foil and disarm last night, it wasn't bad, wasn't it?

Also my point was, that pvp is not unbalanced(at least I don't see how it's unbalanced), and there is no point in fixing something that isn't broken.

Important thing - all I was saying here, was reffering to cast & run. I tend to agree that block might be a bit too good, and it would need to be reworked a bit.
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Re: PvP thoughts...

Post by DrBiggie » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:35 am

Heniek - Well disarm was nice while you stood in one spot so I could hit you. But when you were running around it was a complete waste of time to even try and hit you with a melee special.

Shar - That's an awesome idea to make block a manual thing where you have to block in a direction. That would definitely spice up PvP a bit. I was fighting kibjr the other day, I had a shield and he didn't, so I won. But he was fighting like everyone used to fight before block (by running around randomly and attacking from different directions) and if I would have had to choose which way to block he would have beat me hands down.
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