Ecomonic system

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Lanphrost
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Ecomonic system

Post by Lanphrost »

We need an economic system to make the money flow. I have a few ideas, but I have to go, so I'll start the thread and then put in my ideas later. Also, a quick idea before I go to make this a valid post:
We need NPCs to have better items for sale. All items and money are completely controlled by players, and generated constantly and infinitely by monsters. This means too much money is going to the players, and much less of it is being recycled into the system.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by Avele »

I have only two words for you... "Toll Shrines...."

As a matter of fact, I am on my way to stand (all day) on the one NW of Nordhaven as we speak. /pvp 0...

How's that for ecomonics?

;)
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by eggmceye »

economics in orpg's sux :rage:
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by LaughingCoyote »

Have you tried searching the forums for previous threads about this...
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by Grodst »

Change...we will get it.

Be happy with what we have. Why would we want to give our gold back to the "system". Sounds like taxation!!!


Nah.


Too many threads like this exist/have existed. Let's have some constructive, helpful posts. Enough BS ones about EUO SUCKS AND I'M NOT SMART ENOUGH TO SUGGEST HOW TO IMPROVE IT---OR PROVE THAT IT SUCKS. Not aimed at writer of this thread, btw. I like how we're actually getting some movement on the manual from several folks. Nice that we're giving something back, even if we're pissing off Egg by posting things there w/o consulting him.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by WbBann »

I thought player controlling items is the best thing? NPCS selling uber items is just like the secret merchant days.... Gives people an opportunity to look rather than buy there stuff.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by Lanphrost »

This will be my last post here as I see this is bothering people, but I think my own argument is null and void... like Egg said, I can't find a single game with a good economy to use as an example... (worst example I found was RS XP I hate that game anymore)
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by DrRude »

Lanphrost wrote:We need an economic system to make the money flow. I have a few ideas, but I have to go, so I'll start the thread and then put in my ideas later. Also, a quick idea before I go to make this a valid post:
We need NPCs to have better items for sale. All items and money are completely controlled by players, and generated constantly and infinitely by monsters. This means too much money is going to the players, and much less of it is being recycled into the system.
Greetings, all,
I know this might be a little late to post but here's some food for thought that might put things into perspective.

For starters, let's make a fact perfectly clear -- EUO does not have an economy.
  • If an economist were to look at this world it would be considered somewhere between an "informal economy" and a "Barter Economy" at best because it lacks things like a Gross National Product (the total value of goods and services produced in a country), the people aren't taxed, and there is no form of government to impose any kind of regulations -- a sort of Feudal Anarchy where only game parameters, GMs, and raw power seem to keep things wheeling along the straight and narrow. Along with that, all of the gold and natural resources are created by random number generators within various algorithms -- meaning they will never run out or reach limits like they do in the real world.
  • Exactly what are you talking about recycling money into the "System"? There is no System, thus no need to put money into it. Usually when someone starts complaining about this it could actually be interpreted as a veiled complaint about older players with money and houses and such and noobs that want the same thing right now. The reality is that in the Feudal Anarchy that is EUO and other MMORPGs, there will be uneven distributions of wealth. Some of the older users will tend to be rich because they've been around the longest. That still doesn't make for a messed up economy and noobs crying about it won't help, either. Again, an economy can't be messed up if it doesn't exist.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by Magrock »

Let's create a huge economic stimulus package and bail out the house owners, Banker NPCs and raft makers. Just joking.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by eggmceye »

how about the abolition of all gold, then there would be a real barter system and you'd have to develop your own currency or commonly traded items - that would rule
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by stegos »

eggmceye wrote:how about the abolition of all gold, then there would be a real barter system and you'd have to develop your own currency or commonly traded items - that would rule
If you're not being facetious :mrgreen: then what would NPC's accept as payment? Nuke those too?
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by kusofthevalley »

stegos wrote:
eggmceye wrote:how about the abolition of all gold, then there would be a real barter system and you'd have to develop your own currency or commonly traded items - that would rule
If you're not being facetious :mrgreen: then what would NPC's accept as payment? Nuke those too?
You just take all NPCs out:

Put in farming and hunting skills for food, that gives you a fairly base tradable item.
Make all tools craftable (most are anyway).
Make spell reagents easier to find in nature - or maybe add an apothecary skill which you need to find reagents?
Paper for inscription can be made by tinkerers with logs (or add papermiller skill? maybe not...)
Tomes are a problem perhaps - they could all be made into quests I suppose.

Does anyone else think getting rid of gold is a great idea?! :)

EDIT I just realised I have hundreds of ideas about this. Egg, are you interested at all?
Last edited by kusofthevalley on Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by laz »

To me it sounds like a good idea, but in practical I dont really see it as being so. In real life, currencies were developed to avoid some situations where the trading item does not suit to the person you want to trade with.
Another question would be: imagine you're level 10, start choking or get poisoned, need to go to a healer, but have no skills/items to trade with (you're lvl 10!!) - what, just let yourself die?

The way I see it, virtual worlds' economies are very similar to the real world's. What I think is happening in EUO is that this economy was a system developed early in-game and is lacking, like many other things, a serious brainstorming on how to adjust, tweak and implement in a rather fail-proof way. I do get the feeling the economy got fuxed because of the previous enchanting system (not only, but perhaps mainly) and currently needs some serious tweaking involving item drop, rare item drop, their rates, NPC's selling and player-earned merchants.

And quite frankly, I do think egg's done a good job so far, so, like I said before, I think there should be a bunch of players that can think about the game (and not their own profit) to reflect on this and other matters, and then suggest improvements.

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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by stegos »

eggmceye wrote:abolition of all gold
stegos wrote:what would NPC's accept as payment? Nuke those too?
kusofthevalley wrote:You just take all NPCs out ... Does anyone else think getting rid of gold is a great idea?! :)
Nuking currency might be fun to try. But then again, are there any other MMORPG's out there that use only a barter system and do not have currency? How is the "economy" in those games? And do people consider that fun, challenging, or just a pain in the patootie? I guess that might depend on whether a player is a "have" or a "have not". Then again, isn't that where we are right now with gold anyway? What problem are we trying to solve?

And what about player merchants? Does that mean that players can only purchase from other players when they are online? At least player merchants allow Player-1 to purchase from Player-2 when Player-2 is offline. Frankly, i don't want to spend time trying to coordinate purchases with other players outside the game so we can purchase inside the game. I do enough of that at work with phone tag, purchase quotes, and the like.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by stegos »

Lanphrost wrote:We need an economic system to make the money flow.
"Make the money flow" or make it disappear? To make it flow, everyone needs to lower their prices. To make it disappear, add gold sinks.
Avele wrote:"Toll Shrines...."
Awww, Avele beat me to it.

If you really want to get practical about the gold sink, add a level-up tax. Ultima 4 had something like that for the Ambrosia shrines. When you level up, you must have the right amount of gold in your inventory when you meditate at the shrine. After you have meditated and gained the level, the gold is deducted from your inventory. The amount of gold depends on what level character you are. It might be proportional to your level or experience points. The higher and more powerful the character, the more it will cost to become higher and more powerful. That way players must choose between their gold or their character strength. It will make dying and losing your gold more of a penalty. It will also be more of an incentive to go back for your gold after you die.
- the true heart of ultima... is virtues and all that hippie crap - eggmceye, 2-jul-04
- Sorry would be the day that Stegos does not have some ideas, even bad ones. - me, 26-oct-05
- K goin back 2 Erth now ... - Morthwyl's Dino, 27-nov-07
- Level-up tax - the BEST gold sink! - me, 9-jan-09
- Stegos said it best... - Akyla, 21-sep-04
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by Bk »

I don't like the idea of having to pay to level up.
If you got rid of gold and didn't need the merchants, then I say why have towns, other than for a bank.. BUT in place of merchant's buildings and stuff, you could have quests in those spots that could help with stuff other than experience. Say you went into Montor East (one side at the north is for armouring, the other weaponsmithing). Take out the worthless NPC merchants (no one buys and hardly anyone really sells, most people just leave untinted crap laying around) and replace them with quest NPCs that will give out Armouring exp and Weaponsmithing exp for certain tasks to be done, then eventually once a player has created all of one skill's quests, a new option is available to be made with 100% in that certain skill. :cool:

On the idea of player merchants... I hate them, just loooookkkk at all the junk (not just crapp either, but some stuff is quite good, high tinted + items) that no one will probably buy, except one guy every once in a while... the rest just sits there...

I'd be all game too for gold dropping upon death in PvP to come back in too :D That'd be cool, but it'd basically just be taking gold from one player and giving to the next without really losing any gold.

How about if you die, you don't drop 100% of your gold. IT all drops but when you go back, it's only like 75% of what you had when you died, like if you have 1k when you died, it all is removed from you inventory, but only 75% is on the ground, the other 25% is poofed out of exsistence :D
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by laz »

I'm digging this up because I have been thinking about this for some time now. My first post was rather unclear: it followed a different opinion route from that of DrRude and did not exactly provided ideas easy to implement and discuss.

Taking Egg's suggestion (deep whish?) of abolishing all gold, I thought of the following:
- remove gold drops from mobs;
gold would only be acquired by selling items to NPCs (like weapons +1 and gear +6, whatever); not EVEN CRAFTING gold coins would be allowed.
- player merchants and NPCs would still negotiate in gold coins.
- remove many items from the "drop" list;
stuff like potions, food (not craftable, but would have to go), tools (pocket knifes and such) -- all would only be found by going to NPCs; fish could still be fished, but not all kinds of fish.
- improve the NPCs buying prices;
adjusting the prices paid for items according to each item characteristics, thus making the "sale" more fair -- but not so much as to favour the player. My idea is the following:
)> suppose you have a gold lucern hammer +2 for sale, that's been sitting in your merchant for months and you want to "capitalize" on it
)> by going to the right NPC, the price the player would sell the hammer for would be based on the equation:

Code: Select all

(X * Y) + (Z * stat)
X -> would be an amount pertaining to the tint (min_val = 1, for reg, max_val = 5, perhaps)
Y -> would be the current price
Z -> being a multiplication factor by which the stat value would be multiplied
(Z would be of a different value according to different stats; Defense has values +1, +2, +3, +4 and +5 (?) whereas int or dex goes up till +24, at least).[/color]
- Some NPCs - special, hidden, whatever - could sell gear up to +3, dipping would be removed (to avoid cheesing)

So all in all, i think the result would be the cleaning up of the player merchants in exchange for money, and an increase in NPC's items requirements.

There are still some lose ends for which i'll try to think about solutions within Egg's "demands" (no old enchanting!), but any feedback will help me figure if i should keep spending time thinking about this or just move along. :D
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by Keighn »

stegos wrote:.....Ultima 4 had something like that for the Ambrosia shrines.....
Ultima III (3) 4 shrines Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity.... 100gp per point... SHAZAM!!
ZUPS!!!!
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by eggmceye »

laz always makes good posts but the prob here dude is that yr not getting rid of gold, just attempting to make it more valueable, but who cares how valuable it is. Yr mod (which is great btw) would req a gold wipe I think as there is a lot of gold in circulation atm.

I think the point of my post is to get rid of an official currency and just let one evolve.
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Re: Ecomonic system

Post by Eclips »

eggmceye wrote:
I think the point of my post is to get rid of an official currency and just let one evolve.
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