Make Dexterity Good Again

"eventually EUO will get to the point its (sic) unplayable" - Dudle

Moderator: EUO Moderators

User avatar
Sarge
I'll be going back to Tibia next week.
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:28 am

Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Sarge » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:22 am

Having spent a couple of weeks in the game now I would like to firstly mention that the amount of complexity and things that a re great about this game is vast. There are a few things that 'bother' me though and I wish to mention some as constructive criticism.

Of those things, the imbalance of attribute usefulness is one that stands head and shoulders above the rest. There are only three attributes in Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence and because of that it should mean that it is imperative that they have as near as possible equal value. In my limited experience this is not the case at all.

Str and Int are very useful, as they should be and Dex, well, it just isn't. The gap is far too big.

The best thing I can see and has been mentioned in my in-game enquiries is that it increases dodge chance. This is a beauty for sure.

Secondly it is the stat responsible for movement speed and that is great but I feel that having it capped at 250 dex is not ideal. It's not the fact that it is capped that I have an issue with, it is that it happens at 250. That is a mere ~40 levels when the level caps for Regular and PD are 500 and 1000 respectively, meaning that at less than 10% and less than 5% respectively you can have movement speed capped out.

What that does is rob Dex classes of what should be a trait that makes them more appealing. Just like a mage's spells can do more damage with higher Int, so should a monk or rogue have great movement speed. The way it is though is that it really is easy for even a mage to cap out movement speed, with minimal drawback, if you wanted.

I wish to recommend that the movement speed gains is spread over a far wider range. Since Monks are 'optimised' at 50% Str + 50% Dex and Rogues at 25% Str + 75% Dex, it makes more sense to me that the cap is a lot closer to the Rogue or even Monk Dex ratios. I'll abstain from suggesting a specific number here in my lack of experience, but I'm sure you understand what I mean here.

Now to the most critical part, the crux of my post and what bothers me about Dex really. Since I believe it used to be like this some time ago (and may have been OP at the time according to the odd comment): Please consider having Dex buff attack speed.

Not only is it logical to me but it is imho the absolute number one thing Dex should be about. If Dex did nothing else it should buff attack speed. I agree wholeheartedly that the weapon type determines the base attack speed but over and above that Dex is what should improve that with development. This is what Dex lacks and needs to balance it with the other two attributes and what would make it a desirable attribute to players.

In a game where the beauty lies in the ability to cross-class and almost infinitely tweak builds to have umpteen unique iterations, allowing this can only add value to this core mechanic.

User avatar
SanJorge
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:02 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by SanJorge » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 am

I noticed that too, Dex is the weakest stat, it wasnt always like that it increased attack speed long ago , but that caused problems with lvl 300 rogues on reg, now with lvl 500 it could be worse, so i would go increase the dodge abilities even further . Dodging VF was a good start ( did the spell get cheaper after that change? ) , VF from weapon seems bugged as you can dodge it with 25 dex (or it is still int based, i had only 25).

User avatar
EmoMage
Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:10 am

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by EmoMage » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:42 am

SanJorge wrote:I noticed that too, Dex is the weakest stat, it wasnt always like that it increased attack speed long ago , but that caused problems with lvl 300 rogues on reg, now with lvl 500 it could be worse, so i would go increase the dodge abilities even further . Dodging VF was a good start ( did the spell get cheaper after that change? ) , VF from weapon seems bugged as you can dodge it with 25 dex (or it is still int based, i had only 25).
here we go again
eggmceye wrote:
ParadoxOfChoice wrote: Zombie using bow/sling probably shouldn't give disease.

the zombies are pulling the arrows out of their ass

Tink
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Tink » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:10 am

:LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON:

User avatar
eggmceye
hello
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by eggmceye » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:32 pm

it's true, dex is the weakest stat

I think improving dodge is a good start ... attack speed? maybe ... have to be subtle. Walk speed: I've been normalising that for years because as a new char, the slow default walk speed is terrible and just makes me want to quit. I will consider any suggestions to make dex great again.

However consider that most builds go around weapon dmg: so fighters will be low dex and rogues high dex. prob best to ask rogues what they think.

I still kinda wanna do a stance for SanJ that makes a 75/25 str/dex build viable ...

User avatar
Heikki
Tune in next time & see how they do it.
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:44 am
Location: Finland

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Heikki » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:55 am

Yeh. Dex is the worst stat. And rogues use it mainly. But: Rogues dual weald + hide + backstab + special moves combined are really powerful... a lot better than fighters special moves + tactics bonus combined... So boosting dex wrong way makes rogues easily OP. I think rogues vs fighters in PVE are now pretty balanced?
Also, UA is a class skill for fighter.. so it is possible to do 50/50 fighter (But not sure about this)?

PS: IMO it was great when dex affected more on moving speed... Not sure why it changed?
Reg Heikki, Pyttipannu, Nappo
PD Soturi R.I.P , Taikuri, Rosvo

Joke of day:
A skeleton walks into a bar - orders a beer and a mop

User avatar
Sarge
I'll be going back to Tibia next week.
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:28 am

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Sarge » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:03 am

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

If the slow walking speed for noobs is terrible (which it is) then consider increasing the base speed and that should solve it while you can still spread the incremental gains over a wider range.

Do whatever needs to be done to have attack speed gains through dex be balanced. If it didn't come across that way in my post then let me say it so here: I am not suggesting that dex be what leads attack speed, not at all. The weapon base should play that roll even to the point where a maxed level rogue with a fuckton of dex is still reliant on a fast weapon if they want to uber-focus on attack speed. Those two value curves should likely never meet, but they could get close.

The problem I personally have with arguments that improving dex would make a class OP is that imho the argument is ass over head... the cart is put in front of the horse. Attributes lead classes, not vise versa.

Get attributes balance first and then you balance classes. If improving dex to equal value of str and int means it makes anything else (rogue, monk, whatever) OP, then you throttle those back to be as strong as they were before you buffed dex. Assuming they were balanced to begin with, which it seems they are..

User avatar
Rumper
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:49 pm

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Rumper » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:57 am

So for melee classes it goes like this
90/10 str/dex for fighter
50/50 str/dex for monk
25/75 str/dex for rogues

So the question is what is less important for fighters, more important for monks and most important for rogues?
Dodge is 1 thing.
Speed is another.
WHat else?

User avatar
LaughingCoyote
My monkey's still learning the basics of e-mail.
Posts: 986
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:30 pm

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:17 am

Heikki wrote:Yeh. Dex is the worst stat. And rogues use it mainly. But: Rogues dual weald + hide + backstab + special moves combined are really powerful... a lot better than fighters special moves + tactics bonus combined... So boosting dex wrong way makes rogues easily OP. I think rogues vs fighters in PVE are now pretty balanced?
Also, UA is a class skill for fighter.. so it is possible to do 50/50 fighter (But not sure about this)?

PS: IMO it was great when dex affected more on moving speed... Not sure why it changed?
Not sure thats true about fighter specials anymore. UA is not fighter skill anymore, its monk - separate class.
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D

User avatar
LaughingCoyote
My monkey's still learning the basics of e-mail.
Posts: 986
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:30 pm

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:30 am

One easy buff for rogues that isnt quite dexterity related (but could be) is how stealth is revealed any time you change equipment, use a raft, but mage invisibility isn't effected. Buff rogue stealth, or swap how they work.

Magic invisibility should be more fragile than rogue invisibility, or link it to how much dexterity you have.
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D

User avatar
1[WoWz]
MACRO > me
Posts: 836
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by 1[WoWz] » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:15 am

My suggestion is to make dex give a chance to dodge enemy spells. Something like Dodge chance = YourDex/EnemyInt * 0.25

The minimum chance is 1% and make the maximum chance at like 25%
IGN: 1

User avatar
Mackey
Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.
Posts: 710
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:18 am
Location: Cleveland, OH, US
Contact:

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Mackey » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:25 am

Yeah dodge is garbage right now compared to Block. Maybe scrap dodge as a biproduct of Dex, make “Acrobatics” or something a skill that grows with rogue weapon use similar to how tactics goes up. Skill gives dodge chance that increases with skill and reduces AOE damage (lava, IVPY, etc).
Roll dex modifier into AC
And finally, remove dodge/block mutual exclusivity already.

User avatar
CinisterD
Here for the lesbians.
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:26 pm

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by CinisterD » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:52 am

1[WoWz] wrote:My suggestion is to make dex give a chance to dodge enemy spells. Something like Dodge chance = YourDex/EnemyInt * 0.25

The minimum chance is 1% and make the maximum chance at like 25%
While I appreciate the suggestion, I think this is a bit much. At least if it maxes at anything higher than 10%

User avatar
1[WoWz]
MACRO > me
Posts: 836
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by 1[WoWz] » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:02 am

CinisterD wrote:
1[WoWz] wrote:My suggestion is to make dex give a chance to dodge enemy spells. Something like Dodge chance = YourDex/EnemyInt * 0.25

The minimum chance is 1% and make the maximum chance at like 25%
While I appreciate the suggestion, I think this is a bit much. At least if it maxes at anything higher than 10%
10% is pretty low and you wouldn't get 25% against things like heroic balrons. Maybe a low % for full dodge and a higher chance dodge % for half damage?
IGN: 1

User avatar
CinisterD
Here for the lesbians.
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:26 pm

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by CinisterD » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:38 am

Honestly, you all ( I see a lot of rogues on this thread, as it should be) would know more than I would. I probably shouldn't start disagreeing with y'all without having the same kind of experience with rogues. I just thought 25% sounded high. Should've just said that to begin with.

Giving an outside opinion to make sure the solution doesn't make another balancing problem long term.

User avatar
eggmceye
hello
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by eggmceye » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:19 am

CinisterD wrote:Honestly, you all ( I see a lot of rogues on this thread, as it should be) would know more than I would. I probably shouldn't start disagreeing with y'all without having the same kind of experience with rogues. I just thought 25% sounded high. Should've just said that to begin with.

Giving an outside opinion to make sure the solution doesn't make another balancing problem long term.
I see you posting here, hello ... did I fix mages yet to your satisfaction (actually forgotten) LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON ?

Tink
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Tink » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:42 am

Egg just went full Savage.

Can you fix damage scaling for necros plssssss :-\

User avatar
eggmceye
hello
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by eggmceye » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:59 am

No i was being nice

User avatar
EmoMage
Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:10 am

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by EmoMage » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:59 am

str=more load carried, higher hp.
int=more MR, more mana(same thing, really?)
dex=more..............dmg with backstabb.

i don't really know where a good starting point would be for rogues. i could see dodging being useful, but is that something that's really practicle? to me, dex always just equaled speed. with dex back in the day, you hit faster, you walked faster, and just everything about dex was just speed. that's the mindset i'm currently at. maybe more dex should come with dodging more, since you're "faster". I'd have to hear/read a really good idea to get my mind rolling. speed speed speed is all i see when i think/read/look at dex.
eggmceye wrote:
ParadoxOfChoice wrote: Zombie using bow/sling probably shouldn't give disease.

the zombies are pulling the arrows out of their ass

User avatar
Assailant
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:06 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Make Dexterity Good Again

Post by Assailant » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:19 am

Instead of reworking weapon speed to scale off dex make a buff based off it which does. Say wep speed is increased by 10% while in adroit stance and the duration is increased by total dex. This doesn't break the other classes but gives rogues and monks a nice boost. Also duration increase curve should be steep so fighters don't look like they're wielding rondels with a warhammer. Caps at like 500 dex?

+1 for lowered AOE damage. If you're fast as shit lava can't hurt you, see ritual of people running across hot coals.

Post Reply