shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

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shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:23 am

trolls and priests and dual classes look out, YOU ARE NEX
youAreNEx.jpg
* considering making versatility max 150% (so you cant get 80% priest and 90% fighter)
* making versatility work for all races
* or completely disallowing priests to be dual classable
* even considering removing versatility completely

alternatively
* considering removing vum
* considering removing VM, leaving XVM and a replacement weaker improved mani
* considering making VM heal over time rather than 100% instant

also
-also UA needs to be classed again, regret making that unclassed
-troll dual wild needs a nerf or restriction or removing

the priest bubble is about to pop, so sell sell sell and stock up on your fighter/rogue/mage shares. this whole priest thing is cheesy as hell and odds on it's getting gutted this week.
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Re: misc updates thread

Post by Eclips » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:47 am

:( Now I have 1 character I feel is safe to lvl. I have a dual classed mage and a UA/Priest Troll. Thank god for that old human rogue I made forever ago.

Are you going to be changing the way specials work for UA or will it be staying the same?

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Re: misc updates thread

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:38 am

Egg may want to move this to another thread, as I think the shit is about to hit the fan. Several questions and responses to the planned changes to priests:

1) Is it just half-trolls that are overpowered because they effectively dual class/priest without sacrificing 30 levels at Versatility?
2) Is it just that its unfair for only humans to be able to dual class?
3) Is VM and VUM overpowered in and of itself?

If yes to the first question, changes required are limited to making UA class based again.
If yes to the second question, then making Versatility available to all classes would fix this.
If yes to the third question, then tweak/nerf those two spells.

But please don't get rid of dual classes!
eggmceye wrote:trolls and priests and dual classes look out, YOU ARE NEXT
Are priests overpowered to the point where they need a complete nerf? As a single class in of themselves they're not, as almost no one plays only as a priest (Excluding half-trolls, which should be discussed separately). All the mages who converted to priests hated it and changed classes again or worked their way up the class cap.

Are priests overpowered in combination with dual-classing? Yes, they were with the sword golem summons before the nerf. Now? NO. The main advantages of priests is VM and VUM. Are these spells overpowered? Well, VM has essentially the same effect as mega yellow potions except you dont need a fighter's strength to carry a stack of them. VUM is stronger than greater health scrolls, but this is only a matter of degree. If both these spells were the problem, you would have to remove both mega potions and greater health scrolls as well.

When priests became a separate class, what it effectively did was allow both human rogues and fighters to have the same access to priest spells as mages once did automatically. This actually led to more balanced classes. As such, any human character still had to sacrifice 20-30 lvls to gain access to VM and VUM.

The real question is, is human dual class/priest the only viable way to play atm? Just looking at the new players in the game, it doesn't appear so. You cant judge from the reg scoreboard as its dominated by older characters that were originally human, so not surprisingly most of them chose to go priest when it was made available. Looking at the new players is a bit harder, but again plenty of newer players choose to have non-human race characters. Looking at PD scoreboard where you would expect the players to be a bit more savvy at powerleveling shows that they have a range of builds. On a server the ability to heal yourself is at a premium it is not surprising that 8 of the top ten are dual/priests, but what's interesting is that at least 3 of the top humans (ion, crusher and hawk) have all decided not to go dual/priest. Seven of the top ten are humans, but again there is probably some bias as a lot of the top ten characters were made before races.

Looking at the Monthly PD ladder is even more illuminating. This is a summary from the last 8 completed months (excluding this one as quest ladder makes race/build irelevant). I stopped at 8 as after that not many characters survive, too many gaps in info.

Human 20 (25%)
Bloodkin 4 (5%)
Half-troll 19 (24%)
Half-orc 8 (10%)
Shadow folk 2 (2.5%)
Gnome 12 (15%)
Draconian 2 (2.5%)
Unknown 13 (16%)
Total: 80

Humans and Halftrolls are almost 25% each while the other 50% is Gnomes, Half-orcs, Bloodkin, Draconian and Shadowfolk. Humans and Halftrolls dominate, but they are not the only viable combinations for playing.

eggmceye wrote: * considering making versatility max 150% (so you cant get 80% priest and 90% fighter)

eggmceye wrote: * making versatility work for all races
[b]If the complaint was that only humans and halftrolls can GM Priesthood, then this would solve the "problem." [/b]
eggmceye wrote: * or completely disallowing priests to be dual classable
Would also solve the "problem." But its akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
eggmceye wrote: * even considering removing versatility completely
Ditto.
eggmceye wrote: alternatively
* considering removing vum
People would replace it with GHS, which was the situation before VUM.
eggmceye wrote: * considering removing VM, leaving XVM and a replacement weaker improved mani
Would encourage partying roll for priest characters. Not to bad an idea, but would make it harder for priests to heal themselves. How about swapping the skill requirement of VM with XVM? Make XVM a lvl 6 spell, and VM a level 7 or 8 spell. This in combination with a lower class cap would solve the "problem"
eggmceye wrote: * considering making VM heal over time rather than 100% instant
Again, people would use mega and greater yellow potions as a replacement instead. Not horrible idea though for XVM.
eggmceye wrote: also
-also UA needs to be classed again, regret making that unclassed
-troll dual wild needs a nerf or restriction or removing
Wonderful.
eggmceye wrote: the priest bubble is about to pop, so sell sell sell and stock up on your fighter/rogue/mage shares. this whole priest thing is cheesy as hell and odds on it's getting gutted this week.
Its not clear that priests are cheesy as hell, but to follow the bubble metaphor, letting things pop can have catastrophic consequences as the collapse of Lehman Brothers shows. Please don't rush into it.
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Re: misc updates thread

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:49 am

Here's the excel sheet with the quick analysis of PD ladder.

http://drop.io/lzbatsf
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Re: misc updates thread

Post by TheOneGuy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:10 am

i think that trolls are a bit OP but rakko with a clay hits the same as me when i have more stats than him and im a fighter troll
i think that UA / VM need nerfed and troll to( or just give every one Dual wield and give trolls a different +)
all i want is a test server for maped then ill be happy ...

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Re: misc updates thread

Post by nanasi » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:30 am

Don't nerf it. If something is too strong,you should do boost other.
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Re: misc updates thread

Post by Ozimandias » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:43 am

Please don't get rid of versatility. We love you egg!
But ya, atleast versatility for ALL races. Make humans more desirable by allowing them to be the ONLY ones capable to get 200% class cap.
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Re: misc updates thread

Post by Keighn » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:13 am

I'm all for arguments, but this is the updates thread. Please make a new thread to discuss this.

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Re: misc updates thread

Post by TheOneGuy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:38 am

LC the reason there are a tone of trolls on PD is that they can Xclass there and the natural draw back of the troll is that they cant Xclass. so remort in PD takes away the ONLY down side but in reg trolls are ok as fighters,rouges,mages(they are really good at this :) but priests are OP if you nurf priests again you will see troll UA priests die out fast
all i want is a test server for maped then ill be happy ...

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Re: misc updates thread

Post by Zzapp » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:01 am

Troll fighters seem to have a great advantage over high level human players (or whatever left of them). It seems that troll fighters can work as rogues in a way.

Example: Rogue: prime weapons (that can basically only be found by people who have spare weapons from old enchanting) 2x vampy rondels XJ or AEP, or have one vampy rondel xj and one vampy rondel aep

Troll fighter: prime weapons (ranges from various types of different fighter weapons)(using longswords as an example) 2x vampy, addy, or blackrock falchions xj or aep or again dual weild an xj or aep weapon.

Trolls were superior as fighters but as priest they are GODS! its ridiculous at how half troll priest have progressed with with divinity, peity and still be able to throw hard hits from blessed maces. (no offense at all!) Rusty was one of the best rogues there was but transfered to half troll priest I messaged him asking why out of curiousity and he said " because priest are gods."

Nerf intended.

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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by Khelben » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:41 am

I support the proposed changes. Especially scrapping the ability to have priest as a subclass.

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Re: misc updates thread

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:52 am

Zzapp wrote:Troll fighters seem to have a great advantage over high level human players (or whatever left of them). It seems that troll fighters can work as rogues in a way.

Example: Rogue: prime weapons (that can basically only be found by people who have spare weapons from old enchanting) 2x vampy rondels XJ or AEP, or have one vampy rondel xj and one vampy rondel aep

Troll fighter: prime weapons (ranges from various types of different fighter weapons)(using longswords as an example) 2x vampy, addy, or blackrock falchions xj or aep or again dual weild an xj or aep weapon.

Trolls were superior as fighters but as priest they are GODS! its ridiculous at how half troll priest have progressed with with divinity, peity and still be able to throw hard hits from blessed maces. (no offense at all!) Rusty was one of the best rogues there was but transfered to half troll priest I messaged him asking why out of curiousity and he said " because priest are gods."

Nerf intended.
Does anyone say "Priests by themselves are gods!"? Or is it just half-troll priests?

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Re: misc updates thread

Post by Rusty76 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:33 am

Zzapp wrote:Rusty was one of the best rogues there was but transfered to half troll priest I messaged him asking why out of curiousity and he said " because priest are gods."
I don't remember saying that. It doesn't sound like something that I'd say. Yes I did go pure priest because it didnt make any sense to be rogue/priest. Why not just go full priest and fight with priest weapons instead. Melee attacking is melee attacking and dual maces are almost as fast as dual rondels. So I had a race change, trimmed my rogue skills, medded away my versatility levels and got a respec. The only thing i really lost for giving up my rogue skills was stealth and being able to used ranged weapons well. And yes now that i'm pure priest I am more powerful than I was.

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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:35 am

In response to a debate with Rusty, essentially he was saying that (and he can correct me if I'm misrepresenting him)

1) Half-troll/priests are OP.
2) Most humans go dual/priest,
3) and therefore priests are unbalanced or OP themselves.

But you can accept that both 1) and 2) are correct but 3) does not necessarily follow from 1) and 2).

It's just not the case that there is no variety in character/builds or combinations. The humans that go dual/priests are still spread out among fighters, rogues and mages as before.

If not enough people are choosing to use bloodkin, shadowfolk, etc then it suggests there is something deficient in the races atm - which expanding dual-class to all the races would solve.

The other argument he made was that there are only half-troll priests and human/priests in the game. Again, this just isn't true. Just look at the winners of each PD ladder.


Human 1
Halftroll 3
Draconian 5
Half orc 3
Gnome 1
Bloodkin 1
Shadowfolk 0
Total: 14

There's more Draconians then there are Half-trolls!
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by Severian » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:46 am

Take a quick look at the 6 dual-classing options, and you'll quickly see why most choose priest as their second class: because it is the most stat-independent class, which allows one to focus on either INT (mages), DEX (rogues), or STR (fighters).

Making priests stat-dependent however would favor one of the three classes ...

On the other hand, if versatility is removed or limited to 50%, this would effectively remove dual-classing as dual-classing would simply be a waste of levels.

These are just my simplistic observations.

EDIT: also, I agree that nerfing priest spells isn't really a good solution
Last edited by Severian on Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:49 am

number of lvl 50+ chars sorted by race:

reg:
(
[human] => 350 *
[troll] => 20
[gnome] => 9
[shadowf] => 4
[bk] => 4
[orc] => 3
[drac] => 3
)

pd:
(
[human] => 93
[troll] => 43
[drac] => 29
[gnome] => 21
[orc] => 18
[bk] => 13
[shad] => 5
)


disappointing results for reg - no one really bothering with racial alts, with trolls being the biggest choice
* the huge number of humans on reg is not indicative since humans have existed for abt 6 years more than non humans

pd spread is interesting observation of race usage since all races can multiclass to an extent
definitely suggests other races need further beefing up

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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:59 am

:)

Should have just asked you to do a rundown on the races instead of labouriously looking through the armoury. So much quicker.

P.S. Good point Sev.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by Khelben » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:01 am

Using the PD ladder for comparison doesn't prove anything. Winning the ladder merely requires you to put in some big playing time at the start of the month to discourage other people from playing the ladder.

Scrap the ability for dualclassing priests, make mages put some points/gear into strength for more hp/load, other classes have had to dump stats/gear for int/MR anyway. People paying $5-$20 for a mage/rogue/fighterband should tell you something.

- Let all races dual wield.
- Change half-troll bonus
- Increase MR gained from str/dex

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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by ibrowniedefender » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:12 am

human fighter/rouge FTW

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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Post by eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:23 am

class breakup of lvl 50+ on reg

orange are mage/priests : total 19
green are fighter priests : total 7
purple are rogue priests : total 5
cyan is fighter mages : total 2
-untinted are any non-dual classed characters
- fighter rogues and rogue mages are practically unrepresented

Single class (or any non human, or human with 125% cap or not much more) breakup:
mage 58
rogue 46
fighter 43
priest 10


raw counts:
[Mage:100::Priest:25::] => 31
[Fighter:25::Rogue:100::] => 24
[Fighter:100::] => 16
[Fighter:100::Rogue:25::] => 13
[Mage:100::] => 12
[Fighter:100::Priest:25::] => 11
[Rogue:100::] => 9
[Mage:100::Priest:100::] => 8
[Priest:100::] => 6
[Fighter:25::Mage:100::] => 5
[Fighter:27::Rogue:100::] => 5
[Mage:100::Priest:27::] => 4
[Fighter:100::Priest:91::] => 3
[Fighter:100::Mage:25::] => 3
[Mage:100::Priest:79::] => 3
[Mage:100::Priest:3::] => 2
[Rogue:100::Priest:79::] => 2
[Fighter:100::Mage:61::] => 2
[Fighter:100::Priest:81::] => 2
[Fighter:100::Priest:100::] => 2
[Rogue:100::Priest:91::] => 2
[Rogue:100::Priest:100::] => 2
[Mage:100::Priest:89::] => 2
[Rogue:100::Mage:24::] => 2
[Mage:100::Priest:87::] => 2
[Fighter:35::Rogue:100::] => 2
[Fighter:24::Priest:100::] => 2
[Fighter:24::Rogue:100::] => 2
[Rogue:100::Priest:25::] => 2
[Mage:100::Priest:37::] => 2
[Mage:100::Priest:34::] => 2
[Mage:100::Priest:81::] => 2
[Mage:100::Priest:90::] => 2
[Fighter:3::Rogue:100::] => 2
[Fighter:25::Priest:100::] => 2

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