Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

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Broden
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Broden » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:20 pm

Flamesoffire wrote:
Broden wrote:
Flamesoffire wrote:Rogues used to have a semi-power... And i raped life. Healing and dropping their life like a mofo cause of bleeding. But now that trolls are in, Its not much of a power anymore.
So, if I read that correctly, the addition of trolls caused you to go from "raping life" to needing help as requested in your very next post? I don't see how the addition of a race suddenly made rogues suck. Just curious if Egg, for some reason, removed trolls from the game, would your rogue instantly go back to being able to "rape life?"

You read wrong cause i was mostly pointing out that rogues lost one of the advantages they had over all classes. Dual wielding.

Now you can say "What bout backstabbing?!?"... What bout it? Yeah it helps... If you get it off pvp. pvm is alot easier to get the backstab to work but i was able to take down a bally alot faster with a level 90 fighter compaired to hiding, stealthing to the bally, And backstabbing it with a level 120 rogue.. So not much an advantage unless you a gnome. But not all rogues wanna be a gnome.
I still think I read that right :) I understand what you are implying about the troll having the same ability, I just don't see how that impacted the rogue in a negative way. You stated that you could "rape" thing with your rogue. How has that changed?

And no. I didnt say anything about backstabbing. I am not knowledgable enough about that skill to comment upon it.
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Broden
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Broden » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:30 pm

eggmceye wrote:
Flamesoffire wrote: We dont really need changes.
you should be careful if you say and think this. Firstly you sound like a republican or something. But seriously in life, you must be prepared for change - the only thing that is guaranteed is impermanence (and death and taxes)
Change is a good thing when people see it as benficial. i.e. fighters get new weapons and skills to play with, Mages and clerics get spiffy new spells, exc.

eggmceye wrote:- I think fighters need spicing up a little, but not necessarily made stronger
You should of read my shield charge idea for fighters. Spiffy, flashy and fun, but not over powered :)
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Broden » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:31 pm

Flamesoffire wrote: LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON. If i wanted to pick a fight i wouldnt of called him a silly goose. =] But i got ya.
Silly goose!!! Dude, those are fighting words!!! :)
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Grodst » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:00 am

How about something to spice up ranged in rogues? Who uses ranged anymore above lvl 50?

W/O enchants then?
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Keighn » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:11 am

Been working on playing a few things on PD and one is a fighter/mage and rogue/mage. PVE, PVM, Reg, PD, and NG are such diferent worlds when it comes to this argument.

Reg you have to use the appropriate shrine to get the dualclass and humanoids are exempt. PD anyone can dual. NG anyne can dual up to alloted points.

PVP you fight vs "intelligent" opponents. PVE you fight programmed mobs based on the ai.

No class can ever be exactly balanced like another.

I thought of another possibility that no one probably does and that is just a pure staff wielder or pure monk. (ie not using the class skills) anyone bother doing just this?
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Khelben » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:11 am

Some quick thoughts;

-Melee classes are boring and it is frustrating chasing down a retreating mob trying to hit them with a slow weapon. Being able to execute monsters à la IJO before they heal would be nice. killing xp machine = mage -Keighn
-Melee classes are more gear dependant than mages. Get an ebony/adamantium staff for a mage and you're settled (wand of transferrence anyone?), as a melee character, you'll be hunting for a good tinted enchant or two until your eyes bleed and you'll also want some good MR gear.
-Melee damage scales slow and you have to spend points in 2 attributes, one of which becomes otherwise useless after 250.
-Defense is a pretty much useless stat once you hit a certain amount of hitpoints. Also, defense doesn't scale with levels/stats like MR does. Defense is only good if you want to kill shadowlords for the rest of your life (even still, I'd rather have more stats than def equipment to kill faster). Do excuse me but I do not know how much def you need to nicely absorb damage from higher end monsters (read bloods) but I imagine you need to sacrifice quite a lot of stat gear (read: damage) to reach it.

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Rusty76 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:34 am

Just my opinions:

Priest summons need nerfing, both the sword golem and the insects.

Mage summon toughness should be scaled to the mages int. When a mage uses VYR their buffs should depend on their int.

Locks and traps skills are basically pointless now. Anyone can open any door or box without fear by using EP, skull key or bash. If you have protection going and are full health you don't have to worry about traps at all.

Tactics need to give more than +7 AS and +2 def. Maybe they should give a % boost to AS and def instead of just a flat bonus.

Block skill is good but needs explaining in the manual. How the tints and +'s of shields relate to block needs to be explained.

All races should be able to dual wield. It doesn't make sense that a non half troll can't learn how to fight with two weapons. Replace half troll's dual wield perk with something else.

Fighters need to be separated into 2 classes, one that favors high str and one that favors a balance between str and dex. It isn't useful that a macefighter with a 90/10 str/dex ratio can also gain 100% skill in longswords that has a 50/50 ratio. He would probably never use longswords due to his stats being so out of balance for them.

High enough MR should totally prevent AEP , XJ and IZH from working, not just have them last for their minimum duration.

We need more mobs with non magical ranged attacks. Maybe a shadow archer and blood archer or something.

Fighters need some sort of ranged attack as a class skill.

If there are mobs that are fully magic immune (golems, shadow warriors) then there needs to be mobs that are fully immune to physical damage (none). I'd suggest either slimes and oozes or mobs that are immaterial like ghosts as mobs that are completely immune to physical damage. Since magic users have a way of dealing with magic immune mobs (summons, VYR) non magic users should also have a way of dealing with mobs that are immune to physical damage.

There needs to be some other benefit from dex other than movement speed. Extra str gives a bonus to HP and a bit to MR. Extra int gives a larger bonus to MR. Both of these are open ended benefits that never stop. The increase to movement speed stops at about 250-280 dex. The dodge ability doesn't work well enough to compensate for the loss of benefit from high dex.


I know it seems like some of my opinions are off topic but there is more to balancing the classes than just considering the abilities/properties of the classes themselves. Some of the things that seem to make the classes unbalanced have nothing to do with the classes at all. When thinking about class balance step back and look at the game as a whole and try to see where the real issue is. The real issue might be a race imbalance issue or the fact that a certain mob type is rare or doesn't exist or something else entirely. Everything effects everything else so you have to look at everything.

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Broden » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:54 am

@ Khelben & Rusty.

I agree, chasing down creatures is annoying. It sucks for mages too, but this is about fighters so I pose a fighter specific special attack called "Charging". Basically a mini blink spell (to represent charging an opponent) that places the fighter directly adjacent to a targeted creature and delivers an attack which damages the target and, if it is an NPC, immobilizes it. (the target can't move but it can still attack.) Set the attack with a 2 minute cooloff instead of a rage meter so that fighters have the option of leading off with the attack or using it against fleeing opponents.

Obviously, the mini-blink part of the attack should not be allowed to cross obstacles and restricted terrain. (i.e. water, walls, mountains.)
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Flamesoffire » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:34 am

*To lazy to quote*

LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON @ Broden, I didnt mean it as YOU was saying anything about backstabbing. I just kinda ment that as people in general. Kinda worded that wrong. My fault.



And @ both egg and Broden. I worded that wrong again. I was meaning that classes dont need a change exactly. Everything needs change, Other wise it gets boring and everyone will leave it behind and next thing you know, No one plays cause theres nothing changing. Im bad with wording things. I always look forward to changes. They make things more interesting.




And for whoever made the point of giving fighters a ranged attack. Maybe have Slings be its own skill that fighers get and bows be the new skill for rogues. Cause IF i remember correctly, Fighters have used Slings in the past. (Not in EUO but in medevil times or whatever...)


Sooo, To sum it all up. I suck at wording things. And ranged get split into two skills. Slings for fighters. Bows for rogues.



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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Magrock » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:39 am

Here are some of my observations from playing all the different classes.

My mage is powerful enough without gaining health from the XC spell. If I need HP gained from my attack then I can always use a vampiric staff.

My priest uses the very hard hitting sword golem when things get difficult although I would prefer to see things killed by myself instead.

My fighter easily beat the mages and rogues in the last tournament although that was likely due to technique more that anything else. Using shields made challenges with other fighters much too long. Shields should probably be more skill dependant and less dependant on tint.

My rogue recently changed his secondary class to 25% fighter and this was more than enough to block over half of melee attacks. That, along with good armour and a rapier makes him rarely takes damage from other fighters and rogues. Ranged attacks and stealth don’t seem useful enough to me.

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Khelben » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:08 pm

How about an "execute" ability for melee classes that instantly kills off an enemy when their hp is below 40%, much like IJO?

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Keighn » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:00 pm

If rogues could garrotte from behind: continious damage, oponnent can't cast or eat or drink potion and suffers from choking like when eating cursed food. Rogues could kill mages and fighters and bypassers and be ultimately nasty. So what you have 5k int.. choke on this! Might be able to break it via bash skill or melee him to death. Good luck hitting him as he's behind you.
Last edited by Keighn on Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by eggmceye » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:00 pm

this is about the page where I stop giving a shit

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by LaughingCoyote » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:27 pm

Too bad. :)
Khelben wrote:Some quick thoughts;
-Melee classes are boring and it is frustrating chasing down a retreating mob trying to hit them with a slow weapon. Being able to execute monsters à la IJO before they heal would be nice. killing xp machine = mage -Keighn
If you are smart you'll flurry when they have low hp and kill them before their morale drops. Chasing monsters is only ever a problem with melee monsters.
-Melee classes are more gear dependant than mages. Get an ebony/adamantium staff for a mage and you're settled (wand of transferrence anyone?), as a melee character, you'll be hunting for a good tinted enchant or two until your eyes bleed and you'll also want some good MR gear.
True, mages above level 150 have practically identical gear - ie goldweave + 30 int suit. MR helps lower mages though.
-Melee damage scales slow and you have to spend points in 2 attributes, one of which becomes otherwise useless after 250.
Not true anymore. Egg has fixed this, damage bonus from str and dex are not capped and contribute to damage dealt.
-Defense is a pretty much useless stat once you hit a certain amount of hitpoints. Also, defense doesn't scale with levels/stats like MR does. Defense is only good if you want to kill shadowlords for the rest of your life (even still, I'd rather have more stats than def equipment to kill faster). Do excuse me but I do not know how much def you need to nicely absorb damage from higher end monsters (read bloods) but I imagine you need to sacrifice quite a lot of stat gear (read: damage) to reach it.
As Heniek was saying, smart playing helps. It's well worth having 75+ def and using an addy + 8 ls against shadow warriors that can't hurt you much (can hurt you more now). Only reason def doesn't scale is because all the harder mobs are pretty much magic/ranged, not melee.
Khelben wrote:How about an "execute" ability for melee classes that instantly kills off an enemy when their hp is below 40%, much like IJO?
Flurry, anyone?
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by LaughingCoyote » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: Priests.

Having scaled summons is awesome, but overkill with 200+ lvl characters. Why not just cap the level at which priest summons are scaled to? At the same time, you could scale the magery summons to int (and cap it). Pretty much all mage summons are useless otherwise - I've only used kal bet xen in PVP.

On battlemages.

Could only really work if:

1) Some magery school spells were level dependent instead of int dependent. Eg. improve AEP, XJ, AXE and QAW so that they aren't int dependent and can therefore break thru monsters MR. Move the AMT and VAMT into the school of magery and give Piety more spells to replace (party buffs?) Or maybe move Charm and Confuse into Divinity instead. No mage ever really uses those two spells.

2) Improve magery spells that buff fighters. Now that VS is in piety, there is only EU in magery that can improve fighter performance. Restore S & VS to the school of magery and make them level dependent. (party buffs again to replace?)

3) Have fighter leeching weapons (other than Faulinei fellblade, which no one has). Useless having leeching attribute on staffs and no one melees with them.

NB: Sorcery spells should still be int dependent. Still a payoff b/w doing damage as a fighter or as a sorcerer, but with mage spells providing a better supporting role.
Right now fighter/priests are essentially battlemages.
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Keighn » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:04 am

Khaki can rip a mob a new one. I recall an old post from someone, perhaps Kodiak stating khaki + vampy sword flurry ='d dead balrons. Going to have to try that someday.

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Khelben » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:02 am

LaughingCoyote wrote: If you are smart you'll flurry when they have low hp and kill them before their morale drops. Chasing monsters is only ever a problem with melee monsters.
If you're smart you'll know that flurry is only available as a special to one of the 9 different weapon types and you're still not guaranteed to get the last of the hp down before they heal, unlike IJO (not asking to have IJO nerfed, just want something of the equivalent in melee). Chasing down a monsters with a slow weapon is annoying whatever monster it is.
Not true anymore. Egg has fixed this, damage bonus from str and dex are not capped and contribute to damage dealt.
Melee damage scales slowly, still true. You have to spend points in 2 different attributes to get more AS (read: damage) as melee, still true. Dex is a useless stat other than bumping AS after ~250, still true ie str still gives hp/load, int gives mana/mr, dex; nothing after 250 except AS when combined with str.
As Heniek was saying, smart playing helps. It's well worth having 75+ def and using an addy + 8 ls against shadow warriors that can't hurt you much (can hurt you more now). Only reason def doesn't scale is because all the harder mobs are pretty much magic/ranged, not melee.
Ted can easily kill shadow warriors with ~30 def, no need for 75+def. Now, if I want to start killing dragons comfortably I'm looking at spending the next 40-70 levels upping my int and hoping for better MR gear. Those 40-70 levels will also be without any increase in my damage output which is already very low. I'll say it, def is pretty much a worthless attribute and waste of gear, thunderclap sucks too.
Flurry, anyone?
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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by eggmceye » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:03 am

the only thing more annoying than having to chase down a mob to kill it is having to listen to khelben complaining about it

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Eidolon » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:14 am

this thread rocks

only ppl who have had characters above level 250 for all classes in more than one race should be listened to when it comes to character balance. either that or a level of common sense and logic thats nearly non existant when it comes to well just abt everyone

now that ua br doesnt have the same effect anymore, you have to sacrifice a bunch of levels as a mage just to cast XC and VM at the same time, VOG is only 4 bounces and races cant meditate for a higher class cap, i for one think classes are abt as balanced as they have ever been
Last edited by Eidolon on Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Argue all you like about classes in this thread - it's a FFA

Post by Onyxt » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:20 am

rabble rabble rabble!

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