combat damage thread (split from ideas)

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combat damage thread (split from ideas)

Post by eggmceye » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:08 pm

Please take this post below this announcement with a grain of salt: the dps measurement tools were rough, it doesn't take into account axes, it compares a longsword v a flail (should have done morningstar v broadsword as they have exactly same stats) and it is only v a mob with very high defense. I don't think this post proves anything either way about what weapon is best with what stat builds.

These basic rules still apply (after some more vigorous testing and code checking):
for maces & poles, go mostly str
for axes, go 75% str, 25% dex
for ua/longswords, go 50/50 str/dex - but more str gives you more HP so 60/40 or even 70/30 is fine
for swordswords & ranged go 25/75 approx (but you might need more HP so more str is good here)
for foils, go as much dex as you can afford

personally I would get 200 dex just so I don't walk like a slug asap regardless of what weapon skill I wanted to master




Toadie & CC had me sold that maces (aside from the special) weren't as good as longswords, because when you put all your stats into STR, you attack slower therefore your DPS is lower.

So I made a client side dps meter. It wasn't accurate enough so I made a server side dps meter that emulated 100 attacks against any mob and averaged the dmg. Here are the results vs a shadowwarrior, you'll be surprised:

These builds are based on lvl 150 approx, with 950 points spread between dex/str. All skills=100%. For the shortsword test, tactics set to 0, otherwise tactics=100.
flail & longsword were compared (same dmg/delay) as well as claymore and warhammer.

Maces build: 700 str, 250 dex
longsword: 47 dps
flail: 48
clay: 51
wh: 50
halberd: 51

Longsword 50/50 build: 475 str, 475 dex
longsword: 41 dps
flail: 23
clay: 43
wh: 26
halberd: 37

Shortsword build: 700 dex, 250 str - just for fun
shortsword: 61 dps
rondel: 61

read em and weep min maxxers. Explaination: fighter skills get a huge damage bonus based on excess str. It's in the combat formula somewhere.

You would think the LS result for 50/50 would be higher. Infact it is lower because the extra str adds an AS bonus - and because we are fighting vs a high def mob, the extra AS is appreciated in this instance, thus translating into more dmg. Versus a low / mid def mob, a 50/50 str/dex build would give optimum dps as the str bonus only gives a bonus of 10% max damage.

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by LaughingCoyote » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:45 pm

Wow... that's nasty. LC happens to be a lvl 150 LS fighter like the middle option... ergh. 20% less damage than a mace fighter build using a claymore sucks big time. What were the results for axes? Ih and 2h? Similar to Halberd?
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by Keighn » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:19 am

And UA with fists/ua weapon?
Great maul?
Rapier?

Personally, I prefer morningstar to flail but that's just me.
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by The Oracle » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:55 am

This is so broken :roll:

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by ChrisCooper » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:56 am

so basically, what you're saying is....

The combat system is broken?
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by eggmceye » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:26 am

What's broken about it?

I don't think publishing a full list of every weapon / stat combo is such a great idea ... might as well then just let the server distribute yr stats for you everytime you level up.

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by ChrisCooper » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:52 am

Well, I think that the obvious problem that dictates the term "broken" is that a fighter with maces build is more skilled with a longsword than a fighter with longswords build.

Seeing these results leads me to believe that the dps meter you made isn't taking every variable into consideration (sorry to be so vague), but if it does, then there's still something that should be done about a maces build being better for longswords than a longsword build. Should longsword fighters drop dex entirely after hitting the 250 cap from now on?
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by Eclips » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:48 pm

280 is the attack speed cap, and its effected by your gear.

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by ~SF~ » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:30 pm

*sigh* Everyone whines....

He said these are averages, meaning there is of course a margin of error. :lesson:

:lesson: @ Everyone

Well how about making an 'All-Fighter grinding area (No-cast zone) Just so we mages dont need to hear the fighters complain about being 'opressed' or 'nerfed to death' . Just my Idea...
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by eggmceye » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:01 pm

I'm sure you'll find that it is mages who complain the most.

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by WbBann » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:35 pm

eggmceye wrote:sorry guys, myth busted

Toadie & CC had me sold that maces (aside from the special) weren't as good as longswords, because when you put all your stats into STR, you attack slower therefore your DPS is lower.

So I made a client side dps meter. It wasn't accurate enough so I made a server side dps meter that emulated 100 attacks against any mob and averaged the dmg. Here are the results vs a shadowwarrior, you'll be surprised:

These builds are based on lvl 150 approx, with 950 points spread between dex/str. All skills=100%. For the shortsword test, tactics set to 0, otherwise tactics=100.
flail & longsword were compared (same dmg/delay) as well as claymore and warhammer.

Maces build: 700 str, 250 dex
longsword: 47 dps
flail: 48
clay: 51
wh: 50
halberd: 51

Longsword 50/50 build: 475 str, 475 dex
longsword: 41 dps
flail: 23
clay: 43
wh: 26
halberd: 37

Shortsword build: 700 dex, 250 str - just for fun
shortsword: 61 dps
rondel: 61

read em and weep min maxxers. Explaination: fighter skills get a huge damage bonus based on excess str. It's in the combat formula somewhere.

Urm egg, so to increase my damage with swords I also need to heavily stack up on str??? No offense egg but if this is the case shouldn't this be in the manual or something? Me and just about every high level player or person whos played this game along time were under the impression to increase damage you had to do that formula as the manual said i.e. 50/50 str and dex and increasing str only increases AS. :/ If I misunderstood what you said, I apolegize!

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by eggmceye » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:58 pm

It says it plainly in kod's fighter guide to get 100-200 dex http://swut.net/euo/manual/index.php/Fighter_Guide Also my analysis is different depending on what your attacking - your note aboutt str increasing AS is true -but high AS converts into extra dmg vs low def mobs. - (it is capped to 10% extra damage! - ed)

Look I'm pretty sure I've never told anyone where to put their stats. Search the forums and manual and make me eat my words.

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by WbBann » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:50 pm

eggmceye wrote:It says it plainly in kod's fighter guide to get 100-200 dex http://swut.net/euo/manual/index.php/Fighter_Guide Also my analysis is different depending on what your attacking - your note aboutt str increasing AS is true - but high AS converts into extra dmg vs low def mobs.

Look I'm pretty sure I've never told anyone where to put their stats. Search the forums and manual and make me eat my words.
Ah I understand (I think), so basically against weak monsters like minotaurs, goblins etc then pure STR is the key to causing massive damage but against high def monsters such as balrons, shadow mages etc the 50/50 bla bla formula comes into play (persuming you have the AS to break the defence)? If thats the case then its all cool.

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by Aristarch » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:46 am

I don't actually like the idea of such stat balancing(50/50 or whatever). I would expect that every single point I add to either skill would increase my capabilities and not lower them. Can you just be too dextrous or strong?(you might say you could break something when you're too strong, but properly dosing your strength is a matter of skill).
I like how it is for mage: strength for hp and cap, dexterity to run faster, intelligence for mana and damage. All plain and simple and yet there are a lot of possible combinations to choose from.
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by WbBann » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:49 am

Astriach it is not an idea, it is in the manual as the way to increase a fighter/rogues dps... 50/50 is for ls/ua, 75/25 is for halberds, 100 str is for warhammers... but also its the way to increase your skill points. The fact is many players believed this was the way, hence the fact many fighters have like 600 str/ 600 dex as they are ls, and now I read this in this thread? its like 140 skill points wasted on dex when I could of simply stopped, the fact is I should of just raised str and I would of done more dps.

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by eggmceye » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:02 am

bann (or anyone), please provide a link to the manual page that says "as the way to increase a fighter/rogues dps... 50/50 is for ls/ua, 75/25 is for halberds, 100 str is for warhammers"

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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by Keighn » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:31 am

This is the only link I could find on the subject:

EUO Combat Calculation
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by eggmceye » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:39 am

yeh that must be it, that's quite out of date because it doesn't take into account:
- high str for fighters adding to AS
- high dex for rogues adding to AS
- the fact that you always hit thesedays, and the only time there is a miss is due to dodge
- the fact that dmg is scaled to the difference between AS and defence, and that high AS turns into extra damage (capped to 10% extra damage - ed)

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Re: combat damage thread (split from ideas)

Post by LaughingCoyote » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:57 am

Well, the other bit about damage and stats in the manual is here under "Weapon & damage types, and how stats influence bonus damage" but... as with everything in the manual its pretty out of date and probably based on the old combat rules.

http://swut.net/euo/manual/index.php/Items
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Re: Ideas thread 2009

Post by LaughingCoyote » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:00 am

eggmceye wrote: Look I'm pretty sure I've never told anyone where to put their stats. Search the forums and manual and make me eat my words.
Actually... I may have found it.... if you look through the wiki history it appears that egg added the section about weapon types and damage... so... :P
http://swut.net/euo/manual/index.php?ti ... oldid=1586
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