crafting is a drag

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eggmceye
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crafting is a drag

Post by eggmceye » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:16 am

problem: crafting is boring & repetitive
I don't think anyone disagrees with me on this. Making 20k shortswords does not make good gameplay.

fixes:
i) leave interface the same, make faster but limit to x amount of crafted items per day - see crafting floods economy with crap below
ii) make crafting more fun ... not sure how. Maybe with a mini game but I'm not very imaginative.

problem: crafting is useless
not entirely, but some of it is. Weapon making, tailoring, armour is crap. Wood crafting for your house is great only if you have a house. Tinkering is so-so. Inscription is ok.

fix: let the weapons crafted end up being a subset of enchanted items or even 'crafted artifacts'. eg for weaponsmith:
50% skill can make decent weps for lvl 50 not just plain weps
100% skill can make decent weps for lvl 100 etc

cons: if flooding economy is fixed then there may not be any cons.

problem: crafting 'floods economy' with crap
it's true: for example tinkering, I don't know how many sieves you have to make to get from 50-60 say but I bet it's a few hundred.

fix: crafting skill gain should be faster but needs (paradoxically) slowed somehow, either limited to crafting a certain number of items per day, or have crafting skill capped by level say.

capping crafting skill by level (eg lvl 50 can get to 50% in tinkering)
cons: kinda stupid ideologically - forces player to get to lvl 100 by fighting. Can't make a pure crafter.

limiting crafted items to a set qty per day:
I think this is the way to go. If crafting skill gains were 10x higher, but you could only make so many items per day, then this fixes the boredom factor.
cons: can't really make a pure crafter as your time spent crafting is limited

Also if crafting is faster and more awesome then I think each character should be capped to 200% crafting.

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Re: crafting is a drag

Post by Rusty76 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:22 am

eggmceye wrote:limiting crafted items to a set qty per day:
I think this is the way to go. If crafting skill gains were 10x higher, but you could only make so many items per day, then this fixes the boredom factor.
cons: can't really make a pure crafter as your time spent crafting is limited2

Also if crafting is faster and more awesome then I think each character should be capped to 200% crafting.
I like this idea, it would prevent people from collecting mass amounts of ingredients and just macroing to train the skill. It could be something you can do daily (meaning in-game days). Hunt for a bit, TP home or to the bank, craft a bit, go back to hunting. However the amount of items that you could craft per day would have to increase as your skill increased, otherwise it'd take forever to get to 100%. If the skill progression is right and the player works on their crafting daily, then their crafting skills will grow as they do.

I do agree with the crafting cap, no single player should be that knowledgeable about everything. If you do put a cap on crafting skills would you allow players with crafting skills over the cap to transfer their skills to one of their alts? Or would they just keep them? To be honest I dont really want to just lose all but 200% of my crafting skills though I wouldn't mind if I could transfer the skill to an alt.

One way to make the craftable items better is to make them craftable with a + depending on the skill % of the crafter. if you required the gem required for the type enchant you would avoid people making bunches of stuff just to sell for gold. So for example if you have say 50% weaponsmithing you could craft a halberd + 3 and for ingredients it'd require a pole, ingots and a diamond. As far as tints go, I think silver, copper, gold and blackrock should be the only craftable tints. Everything else should be drop only. Venomous might be ok craftable but vampyric is way too powerful to be craftable. If I had a choice between using an adamantium rondel and using a vampyric rondel (and i do :)) I'd use the vampyric one every time. Most fighters/rogues prefer vampyric. Crafted tinted stuff should also require a higher skill % to get the same + as a non-tinted item. Maybe in the higher ranks of the skill, say 80-90% and higher, you could craft spell enchanted weapons but only the lesser ones ones though. Also, you'd have to have the weapon scroll to to craft it.

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Post by Keighn » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:44 am

Is it just me or does it seem like if things get trimmed here and there you just end up with a big bottlenecking effect where everyone is forced to be generally the same. Limiting the number of items per day just seems odd. If you were to make it a tad more realistic you'd have have certain items take longer to make than others. Surely it would take less time to make a dagger than chainmail or a sword. I can see the point where having thousands of a type of item seems pointless but that's what hoarding is all about.

1st enchanting gets nerfed a bit (didn't matter to me since i never really enchanted).
2nd Levels get capped.
Now we're talkin about limiting crafting. A player technically can only make so many items per day depending on their resources available, how often their tools break, when they need to eat, etc. New players won't notice anything but older players certainly are going to be wondering if the change is for the better or headed to the pits. Maybe I'm just an addict of crafting like some people are addicts to grinding levels. If this happens what will be the next step that is taken away from the staircase?
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Post by eggmceye » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:29 pm

Yeh I know you love grinding crafting for some reason - the only thing you should be offended by is the cap on crafting, but then again you have 100 characters so is it really a problem?

edit, it's not about kicking everyone one in the nuts, it's about trying to make it more interesting (or less boring)

is it really fine the way it is?

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Post by Keighn » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:13 pm

Oh good god no it isn't good the way it is. I've suggested in other threads or to other crafters that crafting needs to be split even more into much more complicated skill trees. More ingredients per tool should be used for various crafting. Each skill should be based on a statistic. ie. Mining for strength, intelligence for inscription etc. You pretty much have how those stats are tied to skills via ng, so I think that perhaps tying the top skill % to said stat would be interesting. It doesn't necessarily have to be 1 point of stat for 1%; it could be 2 stat points for a % or higher even. Here's a few examples:

Say a crafter has 300 strength, 120 dexterity, 30 intelligence. And say we're using a 3 stat points to 1% ratio top skill advancement.

This guy could get 100% in any of the strength crafting skills given time like Mining, Weaponsmithing, Woodcrafting (logging), Armourer. He could get 40% tops in dexterity crafting skills like tailoring I believe. And he could max out at only 10% in intelligence based carfting skills like Inscription. That's how I'd start.

The next step is to split up and make crafting trees more complex. Examples here are Woodcrafting: logging - str & Woodcrafting proper for making the items - dexterity. And Woodcrafting Carpentry - intelligence perhaps.

Another is Mining/metallurgy. Mining str and Metallurgy int.

Tailoring could certainly be split as could tinkering.

3rd would be having more varied ingredients be used per item. Perhaps some weapons/armour require leather strips/cloth/or whatnot. I'd have to check my historical books more thoroughly. Naturally, purely fantasy items could be make out of just about anything.

4th We need more skills period. Cooking/cropraising/brewing/singing/dancing/etc....

5th I can agree about the amount of time a particular item should take to be make. If items were made slower depending on how high of a % it needs to make the item then you would have far less greater items being made than lesser items. i.e. 5 torchs at 0% can be made quite fast per tic than say a wooden items at 50% that takes much more time. Since most items increment at around 5% to make more difficult make it function like this: (note 1 tic is 1 second IRL or 1 min on the pocketwatch time in the game):

0% 1 tic
5% 2 tics
10% 3 tics
15% 4 tics etc up to 20 tics to make an item that takes 100% to make.

Items that require more than 100% could (ie Blackrock Full plate) could take double the 100% time. And it doesn't necessarily have to be 1 tic if you want to make it harder make it 2 tics or 3 or 4 tics per the %'s above.

Now all this still doesn't solve the influx of "useless" items ingame. Since selling mundane items with "+s" is long gone I'm not sure what could be done about this. There is only a couple of suggestions I have to this.

1. Allow NPCs buy mundane items again but with a catch. The catch is that NPC merchants start with a random amount of gold per day as their "kitty" i.e. Mr. Provisioner has starts with say 300 gp one day. This may go up or down depending if someone buys items off the merchant. (in effect a merchant inventory similar to how player merchants have inventories). I suppose you could have it to where a merchant starts with so many of a default item (as they currently sell) in the case of Mr. Provisioner here say he deals in only bread and cheese and starts out with 300 of each and makes as many as 50 of each per day. Once those are bought out he's empty for that day until someone sells him some food or until he makes 50 of each the next day. The same could go for all items in various towns. With a little work you could diversify towns to sell different items (i.e ones they replenish each day) This would encourage people to travel to different towns to fnd various wares to trade/sell.

By doing this you'd still have an influx of items but it would certainly drop in comparison to how many there are now.


I don't know, perhaps such radical ideas should only be tested on a private server for developers. Maybe its more work than its worth. All I know is if I could program I'd at least try it.
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Post by Gulnar » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:31 pm

Back on a game design philosophy kick, egg? Crafting is boring and repetitive, but I don't have any brilliant ideas for eliminating the grind. I do think grinding could be reduced, maybe in ways that simultaneously address some other crafting issues (e.g., "crap flood")

Crafting is useless
Yes. Enchanting was a capstone for tailoring/weapon/armourer/woodsmith. Mining and tinkering feed into these skills, as does alchemy to a large extent (tinted ore). Absent old-style enchanting, there's not much reason to raise these skills (since drops will be better than any crafted +0 items). Having 6-7 skills feed into enchanting wasn't a good situation though. You've got the right idea here. Make these skills stand (largely) on their own.

Fix: Craftable items need to be competitive with drops. Add useful craftable items to the crafting trees: minor artifacts (special abilities not available as drops)/differing item quality (=pseudo enchants)/true enchants (with some limits? e.g., weapons to +4)/etc.

Crap Flood/Grinding
What egg has under "crap flood" seems to be more about the mechanics/morality of grinding, and not so much addressing the crap flood. Both limits (skill=level/# of items crafted per day) just stretch the crap flood out over a longer period of time. The limits micromanage player choices. One way, players are forced to grind levels (as egg recognized). The other way, players are forced to do some other than crafting and take longer crafting. If somebody (e.g. me or Keighn) wants to grind a craft, we shouldn't face a limit in how much we can do in a day.

Brainstorming fixes for Crap Flood and Grinding : just throwing out ideas-combine them or ignore as you see fit

University: Make university training cheaper and raise skill limit from university training. Right now it's only worthwhile for very rich, very lazy players (very rich, slightly lazy players can try to get a noob to sell them raw ingredients to grind crafting).

Flatten items crafted requirement for skill gain: As far as I can tell, the number of items crafted to gain 0.1 skill increases linearly at roughly (skill %/5) from 0 till about 70%. Above 70 it goes up exponentially, so it takes about 100 items per 0.1 at 95%. I find crafting to be pretty fun until I hit this wall, then it gets tedious and boring. Flatten the item requirement for skill gain to a straight ((skill/5)+1) so it only takes 20 items at 95% to go up 0.1, or at least reduce the max (maybe 50 items per 0.1@95%?). Would reduce grinding and slow down the crap flood of high skill stuff.

Skill gain affected by raw ingredient requirements:
AFAIK, there are very small (if any) differences in skill gain rate based on what you choose to craft. How about having a weapon that takes 4 ingots to craft raise skill 4 times as fast as a weapon that takes 1 ingot. This would reduce the crap flood some, since players would have incentive to craft fewer items with higher material requirements for each item.

Time to craft: Coupled with the above? Certain items take more turns to craft, but raise skill more. Maybe a weapon that takes 4 ingots takes 4 turns to craft, but skill raise is also *4. Not sure if this would be a pain to implement.

More complex crafting tree idea 1: Reduce crap flood by requiring more steps/ingredient preparation with additional skill gain. For example, making a weapon could require 3 steps: unshaped (rough) sword, shaped sword (but not sharpened), sharpened sword (final product). Skill requirement for each stage would be the same, so you'd basically gain 3* the skill for each item produced. Lessens crap flood. If multiple rough swords can be produced at once by macroing, then upgraded via macroing, wouldn't make grinding aspect any worse.

More complex crafting tree idea 2: Reduce crap flood via improving weapon quality. Similar to idea 1 above, but items are upgradable about different skill levels. The weapon you make at 40% skill can be upgraded to improved quality (or a +1) enchant at 60% skill. Reduces crap flood by providing a demand for low level crap (although there'd be an ensuing crap flood of higher level stuff). Grinding is lessened some due to ability to reuse regular weapons training skill rather than having to mine more ore. This also addresses the issue of crafting being useless.

More complex crafting tree idea 3:: Rejigger ingredients. The big one I'm seeing here is lumber-0% skill to make, but not useful until you have 70% woodcrafting. If it took 70% woodcrafting to make lumber, it'd reduce the grind above 70% (since you'll need lumber anyway, but will at least be gaining skill making it) and reduce the crap flood (since skill gained making lumber will reduce the amount of furniture you'll need to make). Throw in some other ingredients in other trees so there are things you'd make ahead of time and gain skill off of. For example, if the 20% skill gain window were eliminated for special raw ingredients-have "steel for armour" craftable at 0% armourer, but without a cap on skill gain making it? This steel would be the ingredient for all other armourer items (rather than raw ingots).

Recycling: Recycling has been brought up before, but being able to recycle gear into it's raw ingredients obviously takes care of the crap flood, and reduces the grinding involved in coming up with raw ingredients. I don't think this should be perfectly efficient, if implemented. Maybe weapons requiring 1 ingot can't be recycled, all other weapons return 1 less ingot than is required to make them.


A couple other things

Crafting skill cap: I'm assuming existing players wouldn't lose skills, since lvl 200+ players haven't been knocked back. I'm against anything that keeps newbs from attaining the power of existing players, but I'm also against existing players losing power. At any rate, 200 is way too low. I could see a limit of 200% among the "core" crafting skills: armourer, weaponsmith, tailoring, woodcrafting, tinker, enchanting. If the cap applies to all 15 classless skills, people will go for inscription, taming, healing, meditation, item lore, cartography. Nobody will want to waste their skill cap on armourer or tailoring. I don't think a craft cap is a good idea, but I could reluctantly agree with it if it only affected the 6 "core" skills I listed.

Rusty seemed to imply that macro training crafting was bad: I disagree. I don't think grinding per se is immoral, but with old school enchanting and 10+ keystrokes needed per crafted item I seriously was at risk of getting a repetitive stress injury. My god, 10*~30,000 items=a shitload of keystrokes. Not good. Grinding crafting should be macroable as much as possible.

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Post by Rusty76 » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:06 am

Gulnar wrote:Rusty seemed to imply that macro training crafting was bad: I disagree. I don't think grinding per se is immoral, but with old school enchanting and 10+ keystrokes needed per crafted item I seriously was at risk of getting a repetitive stress injury. My god, 10*~30,000 items=a shitload of keystrokes. Not good. Grinding crafting should be macroable as much as possible.
The point I was trying to get across is that crafting should be FUN, not something you set going and then go watch TV while it goes. And I agree with you about enchanting, it was really a pain to train with all the keystrokes. I agree with the idea that it should take longer to craft an item than a single tick, but the skill % gain rate would need to be increased to compensate.

On a completely different note, maybe you could make it where your char gets 'sleepy' and needs to sleep in a bed or on the ground (like in a bedroll) for 6-8 in-game hours to rejuvinate. If the player has the 'sleepy' status then they have a higher failure rate and slower skill % gain on their crafting skills and also have a reduction to their stats. Perhaps crafting or fighting would speed up the drain on your energy. The energy bar that isn't in use could possibly serve as your measure of energy. When it drops below a certain point you'd get the 'sleepy' status and if it ran out completely you'd pass out until you rejuvinated some of your energy. Of course items could be made to restore your energy, like potions, so you can go for prolonged periods of time without sleep when you have to. Also make it where the time a char is logged off counts as sleeping and rejuvinates their energy. Dang, I must be really tired to be talking about sleeping so much. I'm sorry about going off topic but this just occured to me and I wanted to get it out for what it's worth.

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Post by Grodst » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:49 am

Posting from work, so don't have much time to read all the long posts since last night.

My point is simple, Egg's idea of a game/gimmick to raise skill w/o producing insane amounts of widgets seems best to me. So it takes 400 ingots to raise skill X from 43.1 to 50.2. Player is not really out anything except ores and time, as selling 100 items made for basically nothing on a merchant contributes to flood.

Will try to read and digest your ideas later guys!
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Post by eggmceye » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:20 am

Rusty76 wrote: I agree with the idea that it should take longer to craft an item than a single tick, but the skill % gain rate would need to be increased to compensate.
yes that is important

I just did a crafting spreadsheet working out how many crafts it takes to gain 1 skill point, and then how many it takes to get to 100.

wood, mining, ench
* runs at 2x normal skill gains
* requires 25071 crafts made to get to 100%

wepsmith, alch, tail, tink, inscr
* runs at 3x normal skill gains
* requires 16700 crafts made to get to 100%

armoursmith
* runs at 4x normal skill gains
* requires 12535 crafts made to get to 100%

craft delay is 2.5 sec. Assuming you had enough logs, you could macro crafting from 0 to 100 in 25071*2.5s = 18hours.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... w&hl=en_US

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Possible Fix For Crafting

Post by BlackMage » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:21 am

Ok, I was going to explain all this but I made it sound retarded when I tried to explain it, so I'm just going to write this out as I wrote it out on my paper... X-D

-Scrap current item wear

-Implement a new type of wear for weapons and armours
--Armour becomes 'dented' (damaged) or 'torn' after x amount of time
--After armour is damaged is loses a percentage of it's +x stat until it is repaired
--Tailor repairs leather (leather + sewing kit in inventory - add studs if studded leather)
--Armoursmith repairs metallic armours (ingot of the same tint + tinted hammer in inventory)
--Armour can be repaired 3 - 5 times before it becomes unuseable

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Weapons no longer have 14%, 28%, etc. wear; they now get dull and/or splintered.
--Blades get 'dull' (longsword, shortsword, polearms, foils)
--Maces and morning stars get 'dented'
--Polearms, hammers, bows get 'splintered' (e.g. the pole breaks)
-----'Splintered' poles can be repaired with a woodcrafted pole
--UA Gloves tear
-----Gloves are repaired with cloth and sewing kit

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-How to replace the 'unuseable' weapons
--Create an NPC for "+x stat transfer"
--NPC charges x amount per +x of transferred stat (price varies per stat)
--Old enchanting style used by the NPC; character must have correct ingredient in inventory in order for it to work
--+x stat transferred to new weapon or armour piece

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheeses

-Problem:Any player could take a +8 hoe and transfer it to an adamantium claymore, thus defeating the purpose.
--Possible solution?+x stat transfer is only good for same item and same tint (or next best thing). I.E. A BR halberd +8 is only transferable to a BR halberd with no plus stat. An adamantium halberd +8 is transferrable to either BR or diamond (the next best thing). You can't transfer the +stat to a better tint. No +8 halberd can be transferred to a vampyric halberd to get a +8 vamp halberd.

-Problem:How would the NPC know a completely worn weapon from a newly crafted one?
--Possible solution:Use 'tokens' to signal to the NPC that the weapon has been damaged and repaired; same concept of using quest tokens to indicate to NPCs if prereqs have been met.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This would create a supply and demand for crafters; alchemists, tinkerers, tailors, weaponsmith, and armoursmith. This would also be a massive gold sink! It could assist in a more balanced economy because EVERYONE would want/need this service for when their weapon/armour got worn.
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Post by BlackMage » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:35 pm

Please look at the post I made earlier about "Possible fix to crafting" and see what you think about that.

Basically, it gives the majority of crafting skills some use (some more than others), and would help get a hell of a lot of gold out of the game to get it to be more valuable as a trading/bargaining tool.

If you need any clarifications, just ask and I will clarify. I'm sure that the post could be modified, and I'm working on one of those bubbl.us things to try to make it more clear, at least on the crafting end of things.

To sum up the post in short terms, it requires a recycling of items in the game, and it makes adamantium items much more valuable, as well as everything else. Weapons AND armour take damage, someone fixes them (in the corresponding skill field AND for each piece, not just the main torso), and after they take a certain amount of damage overall, the weapon or piece of armour is useless, and a new one must be crafted and re-enchanted by a gold digging NPC that can transfer the +(x) stat to a new piece of armour or weapon.

The damage goes for ALL pieces of armour as well; torso, head, legs, hands, boots, and shields. I'm not quite sure how to do jewelry yet... perhaps a minotaur attacks you and you get a message saying "The minotaur has cut your necklace off!" At that point it falls on the ground - made soulbound so no one can cry about stealing things - and you have to take it to a tinkerer to put a new piece of leather around it so you can wear it again!

Just read the other post X-D Please and thank you!
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Post by eggmceye » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:08 am

what if I made 2 simple changes to crafting:

i) some items take longer to make
ii) crappier items are re-used to make better items


example to illustrate i, using weaponsmith.
say an item taking 1 ingot takes 2.5 sec to make (let's call that 1 tic)
then make it so something taking 2 ingots takes 2 tics to make, and bumps skill 2x (only problem is that overall less ingots used)

example to illustrate ii:
takes 20% to make a new item 'crude sword'
then at 50% you can make longsword, broadsword, cutlass, etc FROM crude sword

I don't think this makes crafting anymore interesting, unless the recipe tress got more complex.

It does address item re-use - using crappy parts made early on in new objects later.


Also been reading a bit about crafting on blogs and such ... I read somewhere about a system where awesome items don't actually drop but only components to make awesome items drop ... thus making crafting a necessity ...

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Post by Keighn » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:51 pm

That's starting to look pretty promising. I like more steps just like I also like intense micormanagement. To me extremely complicated trees, parts, methods, are excellent.

A couple of other things I think would be pretty interesting:

Recycling items. Now I've heard people mention this before. I'm guessing if items were recycled back into their core units it would get rid of some of the bulk we see laying around. Something at a rate of 2:1 so if an item took 4 ingots/logs/or whatever then you'd get only 2 back from resmelting or recycling it. I know some items take only 1 pole/ingot/glass so to make it actually productive items would be recycled in the 10s minimum. You could, though, type in like 1000 or so if you were actually recycling say that many "smelting tongs" or whatever (which would turn into 500 raw ingots).

I certainly would have a brazier be able to do this. Perhaps at a certain skill level you could build a machine of some sort that can do this (naturally the machine would have to be in your inventory to process the items).

My second idea is that perhaps instead of automatically having the person be able to make the next item he has to instead actually "learn or research" the item from either bookcases, texts, NPCs. It may even cost you to learn exactly how to make certain items.

Later if you include "Items of Quality" then perhaps so-in-so knows the technique to make that "Balanced Sword" or "Heavy Shield" or whatever.

I know, I'm making it even more complex.
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Post by Keighn » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:58 am

I haven't replied to this post in a while but I was wondering what players are complaining about most:

1. The fact that it takes so long to get up to a certain skill?

or

2. Only so many items can be made which makes crafting very annoying?

If it is #1, then I'd tend to say tough as the reward is finally being able to make something at higher skill. I like crafting to be challenging and getting there is all the fun IMHO.

If it is #2, then YES I'd agree something needs to be changed.

Here's something I thought of that that I think would make many gamers very happy. Suppose when you active your crafting (assuming you have all the ingredients), your menu comes up for what you can craft (based on % & ingredients, the tools you're using etc....just like normal). Then one you select what you wish to make you can select a # of how many you wish to make (1-100 or maybe 1-1,000). Then you can simply Shift F11 to macro that # of items you wish to craft (until your ingredients run out). The crummy part is if you can earn skill from making that item and you make a large amount (say 100 or 1000) then you're only going to get the regular increment as you would if you made 1 item. Now if you already can't earn skill from making such items then BAM, instantly done and more time to grind levels or whatever.

Combined with my other idea for slowing crafting speeds down based on % and more components to use items I think this would be interesting.

Recycling items into ingots/logs/glass I think at .75 of the item would be interinst. Works greater when you recycle large amounts of items like in the crafting say 1k daggers get recycled = 750 ingots.

Another later Idea I had was that just because you gain the skill % to make the next higher item up doesn't mean you know how. Introducing Tomes, NPC Teachers, bookcases, hidden recipes, shrine enchants, or whatever would encforce you to look all across the globe and dungeons/townes to find out how to make things.

Even if none of these ideas come to be I'll still start working on recipes for items and etc. Perhaps if I just pump out ideas without so much background info I'll feel like I'm at least doing my job in contributing.
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Recycling...

Post by Dudle » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:14 pm

I dont know if getting resources back from recycling is such a good idea...but i do like the idea of using earlier crafted items in later crafting.

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Post by Catherine » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:30 am

Tangental thought:

I spent all my gold (pre-wipe) on all the skills available (although I lost armour smithing for some strange reason, no idea why, guessing just one of those things). Each skill cost 1.5mil gp at the uni at the time - sorry, but I never did, nor want to do, the 'grind' for virtual skills - Uni was the only way. Tbh, I'd prefer to have a series of hidden 'masters' teaching the skills for quests, items, gold, whatever than the grind.

Morrowind - hit the right spot here.


Hmm. Wait. Might have hit alchemy 100 properly testing, but that's about it. Game is more fun with a Morrowind type arrangement than the insanity of 'make 100000000 longswords so you can now make two handed swords'. That was always pants, sorry to say. Although taming is perhaps the only exception - makes sense. Alchemy / enchanting are the largest no-goes for the old model. ("OH, RIGHT. I've made 100 cough syrups now I can make the cure for cancer". Never sat 'right' for me).


Gold sink + NPC + Quest to get to NPC > repetition.


p.s. I apologise for prior comments on mammal cocks. But seriously - work / client chat today:

Me: [about a 17'5" shire horse] "Well, I've rugged him, picked his feet and rubbed him down, but I noticed he was sucking air [means a sheath is unclean and he's tensing / relaxing to try and rid it, makes a slight hooting noise], so perhaps I should look at it?"
Client: "Oh, don't! Be careful, he gets really funny if you try and clean him down there!"
Me: "Oh, really?"
Client:" Yes! Its taken me seven months for him to allow me to clean him out without kicking, so please don't try and handle it, I don't want you to get your teeth smashed. Its only me he allows to wash him up and down with warm water and soap".



Yea. You can ignore my posts, but really - this stuff happens, and not only that, is all done with a straight face.
Last edited by Catherine on Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Grodst
egg has really fucked this game up :(
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Post by Grodst » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:36 am

Just a quick note, armouring wasn't ever avail to 100% at uni
Making Enchants the right way: one noob after another tossed into the lava.

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Catherine
English correct bastard.
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Post by Catherine » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:39 am

Grodst wrote:Just a quick note, armouring wasn't ever avail to 100% at uni
Ah.

You sure? This is around the time of 10,000,000 gp spent on a +64 int clever that then went poof on code upgrade ;) This was also pre-Egg donations, so I couldn't even bribe it into a staff! i.e. All skills then were available to 100, no questions asked - limitations were in later builds.

If not, I maxed all the pre-skills to 100 with gp, guess I lost some in translation - might have been a split skill. Pretty damn sure I never fished before I got 100 :P


Meh - trainers for $ > repetition anyhow, plus its a good gold / item sink. Sure, have it for the OCD brigade, but there should always be an (expensive) shortcut.

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Keighn
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Post by Keighn » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:00 pm

I can't believe this; people don't like to grind skills? I grind items even if i don't get skill points. Nothing like having 1k+ of items. I Know, I'm a freak.

MCD
ZUPS!!!!

Grodst
egg has really fucked this game up :(
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:54 am

Post by Grodst » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:17 am

Keighn wrote:I can't believe this; people don't like to grind skills? I grind items even if i don't get skill points. Nothing like having 1k+ of items. I Know, I'm a freak.

MCD

Hmmmm, and you want to CONTROL the process? 12k daggers for .01% skill gain sounds like an approaching reality.
Making Enchants the right way: one noob after another tossed into the lava.

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