fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Akyla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:00 am

Hi guys long time no see! Just reminiscing I guess...

And I understand my opinion is pretty worthless considering I haven't played in ages and am definitely out of the loop, but this is the outernats so why not? :D

Things I do remember: (apologies if they were changed for fighters since the way way back)

MR > HP. You can have 99999999 HP but the minute you have a nuke come your way, you are dead. All the HP in the world means nothing when you are stun locked.

DEF = pointless. It was better to get the speed boost from wearing light over heavy armor. Magic was a fighter's greatest foe and light armor gave better MR bonuses.

One-handed weapons were always superior to two-handed weapons. I believe this is still the case due to browsing Chedich's chart: a great maul (assuming that is now the popular weapon from context clues ^^) only deals 2 more DPS compared to a flail. This made one-handed weapons superior due to the fact speed > damage AND it opens up a stat option slot for a shield (sentri shield with +10 MR? yesplz). Speed was always greater. That IVPY enchanted toothpick or vampyric fingernail would spam it up compared to a nukeonastick that hits slower than a turtle and causes a noticeable cooldown between hits (switch to next target and have to 'wait'). Ofc 2-h weapons 'looked' better on paper but in all practice MR and spam were king. A fighter's first job is to tank! I still kill faster (and safer too) with just auto attacks being a bare-handed monk or a AEP cleaver with sentri compared to having an adamant + 9 claymore. Stances furthered the gap between the two by causing 1-h weapons to be safer by far. My stats are approx 11 to 4ish str/dex as well.

To get to the point: I think an overall stat change would be awesome for fighters so they can finally use all their weapons to the fullest extent without having to have a specialty build. I always thought it kinda stunk that if I wanted to use swords I had to take a penalty to other weapons. Make it all the same or do subclasses (which sounds like a lot of work but would definitely make it more diverse... wait are there subclasses now? LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON). Also basing if fighter stats would goof up pvp shouldn't be too much of an issue; fighters fail without 'drugs' to begin with. Ever chase down a mage for 5 minutes while wearing heavy armor? Doesn't matter if you have 50+ levels on them, its an uphill battle to begin with.

Ofc I haven't played in ages so my apologies if some of this info is outdated or has been changed. But it seems I still get better defense wearing a crystal frenzy shirt over an adamnt field plate +6?

EDIT: Never mind what I said about fighter stances being exclusive to 1h or 2h... seems they work with both weapon types now?

Edit2: AEP copper cleaver. On my character sheet it says for damage: 1d4 9.7 29.2 ---> hits red dragon for 24-26. 100% axe skill (think thats cleaver right? :D)
Barehanded no weapon: 1d3 +10.0 +20.5 ---> hits red dragon for 34-36. 32% barehanded skill... Also attacking faster. I'm pretty clueless can someone explain to me how using my fingernails is better than a meat cleaver versus a dragon? Is it my odd stat layout?

EDIT3: After re-reading this I realize I was passively beating around the bush so I'll try to be respectfully blunt about it: I feel there is more wrong with melee than just a fighter's stat alignment. Also this isn't exactly a casual game and takes a ton of time to get anywhere. This is the third time stat layout for fighter's will change (that I know of) and yet the problem still exists that 1h weapons are > 2h weapons (just for the dual stats on 2 items alone). Ofc this is all my personal (now) inexperienced opinion so take it with a grain of salt; but it just sucks to come back and see that, once again, years of my gaming life have been made so complex that everything ends up being 'buffed' into a shithole...

...I got a vampy claymore +9 with a lvlreq of 299. Used to be +22? until it got nerfed. Now I'm sure that I can politely ask Egg if he could fix this 'bug' but I won't. (pls don't Egg :-S ) Why won't I get it fixed? (I can't even wear the damned thing unless I grind for a month) Its the last reminder I have of swut.net/euo before it became EUOtopia... of that more 'arcade' EUO with the cheesy ass pixel graphics I used to love. Where I didn't need to have food /pot buffs, proper stance set, gotta yell at all the monsters and make sure I have the proper weapon equipped with all the proper armors just to get in a fight, but wait better change weapons a different monster type is coming!

I just wanna go back to being a dumb fighter running around whacking shit with some crap sword I found and its actually a damned fight. With that 80's feel. Big ass bulky fonts that fill the screen. Die monster die! Oh wait there's his buddies! Better make sure my mage is ok! (OMFG its online too? yayaya) Wanna camp Nord for noobs later? X-D Watch out there's Neinar zomg... Was it... the polish fishermen always outside Nord? I'm giggling like crazy right now just remembering

Thank you Egg. I love you more than you will ever know. Guess I kinda went off topic there huh X-D

And pls don't take any of this the wrong way Egg, wasn't trying to down EUO whatsoever! But you were looking for a reason why not to change it and there ya go. :) I say get rid of it completely and make fighter the only class where they can use ANY weapon and str is dmg, dex is to hit. Well, melee weapons. Keep it simple stupid ...
Last edited by Akyla on Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:04 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:38 am

Akyla wrote:Edit2: AEP copper cleaver. On my character sheet it says for damage: 1d4 9.7 29.2 ---> hits red dragon for 24-26. 100% axe skill (think thats cleaver right? :D)
Barehanded no weapon: 1d3 +10.0 +20.5 ---> hits red dragon for 34-36. 32% barehanded skill... Also attacking faster. I'm pretty clueless can someone explain to me how using my fingernails is better than a meat cleaver versus a dragon? Is it my odd stat layout?

Super interested in reading a breakdown of how all this pans out.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:39 am

I wouldn't be surprised if the 1d3 +10.0 +20.5 for fists was wrong. That line doesn't tell the whole story anyway: because stat damage, the +20.5, gets scaled inversely to attack speed. So for fists, which are pretty fast I think, that scales up - so is probably more like 25? (DONT listen to me... am extremely wrong here.... hi speed scales stat dmg down) that's a guess - I'd have to chck the source. Dps is one of my euo interests at the moment so I'll have a look soon.

yes you should definitely sit on your +25 vamp claymore : surely a collectors item

vets from 2003 will remember the wild west euo was, and often lament what it became. Me too in some ways. Nothing beat the feeling of working all my spare hours on it and waking up the next morning to see what happened overnight. It used to me more of a wild MUD and now it's more of a MMO, and I'm not 100% enthused about that but I've also never known what I've being doing anyway.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Onyxt » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:03 am

Akyla wrote:...I got a vampy claymore +9 with a lvlreq of 299. Used to be +22? until it got nerfed. Now I'm sure that I can politely ask Egg if he could fix this 'bug' but I won't. (pls don't Egg :-S ) Why won't I get it fixed? (I can't even wear the damned thing unless I grind for a month) Its the last reminder I have of swut.net/euo before it became EUOtopia... of that more 'arcade' EUO with the cheesy ass pixel graphics I used to love. Where I didn't need to have food /pot buffs, proper stance set, gotta yell at all the monsters and make sure I have the proper weapon equipped with all the proper armors just to get in a fight, but wait better change weapons a different monster type is coming!

A few of those old school magic merchant weapons got into circulation a few years ago and to make them not be an unfair advantage they got changed to be +9s. They keep their old plus and level requirement, so its purely a collectors items these days.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Akyla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:11 am

Onyxt wrote:
Akyla wrote:...I got a vampy claymore +9 with a lvlreq of 299. Used to be +22? until it got nerfed. Now I'm sure that I can politely ask Egg if he could fix this 'bug' but I won't. (pls don't Egg :-S ) Why won't I get it fixed? (I can't even wear the damned thing unless I grind for a month) Its the last reminder I have of swut.net/euo before it became EUOtopia... of that more 'arcade' EUO with the cheesy ass pixel graphics I used to love. Where I didn't need to have food /pot buffs, proper stance set, gotta yell at all the monsters and make sure I have the proper weapon equipped with all the proper armors just to get in a fight, but wait better change weapons a different monster type is coming!

A few of those old school magic merchant weapons got into circulation a few years ago and to make them not be an unfair advantage they got changed to be +9s. They keep their old plus and level requirement, so its purely a collectors items these days.


I know this :D

Egg why isn't this game on Steam? Always wondered that... EUO has got to be a top 3 contender for F2P games with most content and updates and a dev that actually cares. How many years has EUO been up? Those are huge selling points to any gamer :) Are you worried about those fishermen?

EDIT:
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:44 am

Euo is 15 years live in april and 20 years since started in august. Yes in Aug it will be 20 years since I was a 23yo sitting at my desk at work as a jr software engineer at a large telco related company, bored as hell, with my work issued notebook and work issued pen, drawing the first flow chart or whatever for how the server should work. I started coding it at work too: was meant to be fixing c++ bugs but instead starting writing map classes and shit. in 99 I designed the item system that we know and love, the 0x11 is a short sword and a 6011 is a silver short sword and a 316011 is a silver short sword +3.

I can't do steam: the comments section/forums would drive me berko. I'm too fragile. besides who needs a 1000s new people playing? it would ruin it.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby LaughingCoyote » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:47 am

eggmceye wrote:Euo is 15 years live in april and 20 years since started in august. Yes in Aug it will be 20 years since I was a 23yo sitting at my desk at work as a jr software engineer at a large telco related company, bored as hell, with my work issued notebook and work issued pen, drawing the first flow chart or whatever for how the server should work. I started coding it at work too: was meant to be fixing c++ bugs but instead starting writing map classes and shit. in 99 I designed the item system that we know and love, the 0x11 is a short sword and a 6011 is a silver short sword and a 316011 is a silver short sword +3.

I can't do steam: the comments section/forums would drive me berko. I'm too fragile. besides who needs a 1000s new people playing? it would ruin it.


15 year birthday party!

Get someone else to moderate the steam forums for you.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Akyla » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:01 am

eggmceye wrote:Euo is 15 years live in april and 20 years since started in august. Yes in Aug it will be 20 years since I was a 23yo sitting at my desk at work as a jr software engineer at a large telco related company, bored as hell, with my work issued notebook and work issued pen, drawing the first flow chart or whatever for how the server should work. I started coding it at work too: was meant to be fixing c++ bugs but instead starting writing map classes and shit. in 99 I designed the item system that we know and love, the 0x11 is a short sword and a 6011 is a silver short sword and a 316011 is a silver short sword +3.

I can't do steam: the comments section/forums would drive me berko. I'm too fragile. besides who needs a 1000s new people playing? it would ruin it.


This is exactly what I mean weirdo. There is heart and soul here that is found in no other game. In fact, there IS no other game like EUO. None at all. The community? People actually give a fuck. Hell you got a team of community mods in the forums already if you don't want to deal with all the trolls (c'mon guys don't lie you know you want ban hammers). All I'm saying is EUO is a labor of love and deserves to be shared. There is no game like it on the market. There are so many trash games on Steam making cash for crap gameplay and full of bug shit wanna-be throwbacks going around that aren't even close to what EUO produces. Seriously. Find another game even remotely close to EUO.

I don't think this game would get 1k players?

http://steamcharts.com/search/?q=Bit+Heroes (really having trouble finding something comparable here... this is a cell game. does this even count?)
http://steamcharts.com/search/?q=Orake+2D+MMORPG (ahhh here's a cheesy one... runescape wanna be... negative reviews due to a worse version of Runescape and full of bugs etc.)
http://steamcharts.com/search/?q=Zezenia+Online (look its a Tibia clone HA... bad reviews mostly due to P2W and well, its a TIBIA CLONE HAHAHAHA)
http://steamcharts.com/search/?q=Warspear+Online (here's a straight P2W one and that is why it gets the mixed reviews... people don't want that P2W)

I know for a fact that I have a better chance of going to the moon than convincing you of anything, but at least give it a thought over a beer. People are hungry Egg, don't let em starve ^^

Also, this argument still stands:
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OK sorry for hijacking the thread. Bye!
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Keighn » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:55 pm

Even though i have a steam account i haven't bought shit there. Now GOG i have 140 games now (yeah those packs of up to 6 gamez are nice. Pissed off i didn't check jan 31st as i missed the the Avernum 6-pack.

Eh, i'll get em some day.

I should buy steam and link to GOG. luv GOG... Kind of ?? Steam. Akyla is right... Some of the news games are pretty craptastic. But i guess people try and thats more than i can do. (Shrugs).
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby CumfartPrincess » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:35 pm

eggmceye wrote:I can't do steam: the comments section/forums would drive me berko. I'm too fragile..


well shit, i feel bad about cursing your name in global for my bad RNG, dumb decisions, no GMs to contain my stupidity, ect.
I almost feel bad for this terrible forum name too.

it's all love, egg. I wouldn't still be dumping cash into EUO if i truely disliked you.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby MoonGoat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:08 am

Akyla wrote:One-handed weapons were always superior to two-handed weapons.


Flurry seems to be the key special that makes 2h hit harder over time. The charts only count regular attacks.

Anyways, welcome back! :)
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:20 am

MoonGoat wrote:
Akyla wrote:One-handed weapons were always superior to two-handed weapons.


Flurry seems to be the key special that makes 2h hit harder over time. The charts only count regular attacks.


rage builds so much faster with 2h weapons, and since most fighter specials are p good thesedays, that's why 2h are so favourable
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:35 am

eggmceye wrote:
MoonGoat wrote:
Akyla wrote:One-handed weapons were always superior to two-handed weapons.


Flurry seems to be the key special that makes 2h hit harder over time. The charts only count regular attacks.


rage builds so much faster with 2h weapons, and since most fighter specials are p good thesedays, that's why 2h are so favourable

This should kinda be looked at in some sense atleast for half troll with dual weilding, there really is no reason to dual wield even with the best weapons in the game. 2 copper spears VOG vs copper thundercracker wtih berserk stance, there is no comparison really. Or it may be my bad math. who knows.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:08 pm

I think 2-handed weapons have always got lot better dps than 1-handed weapons (if you can keep yourself live in low levels without shield). I think I started use vampyric claymore +4 (As did Danzom and Neinar) something like lvl 50 in year 2005. Flurry was about 50% more effective those days and claymore was only 2-handed weapon with flurry.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:38 pm

I think the variance in how slower weapons bump rage in huge chunks and how fast weapons bump it in small chunks might be off
might have to fix that if I ever get around to 90/10 swords/axes
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:56 pm

eggmceye wrote:I think the variance in how slower weapons bump rage in huge chunks and how fast weapons bump it in small chunks might be off
might have to fix that if I ever get around to 90/10 swords/axes


Yep. And lower DPS --> Special moves are also weaker on 1-handed weps....But it should be so?

BUT: Also new "scaling enchants" made fast spell enchanted weapons super on DPS. So it is very hard to say what is best nowadays. Maybe best weapons are now fast dual weald spell enchanted weapons ond/or slow 2-handed with good special move.

Maybe make block better (like chance to block magic attacks / cut off % from incoming damage / something?) will make "1-handed + shield" using more considerable ?


Anyways "real DPS" is really hard to figure out because it depend so many factors like: Weapon, special move, spell enchants, stat ratio, buffs, enemy MR, enemy def, enemy HP, dual weald, back stab, amount of enemies..etc etc. Best way to find out most effective weapons is trying to figure out XP/min for character somehow.


Really raw aggravate fictional example:
You have 2 weapons :
Weapon a hit once per 10 sec but 1000 damage. (Theoretical DPS = 6000/min)
Weapon b hit once per second but 2 damage. (Theoretical DPS = 120/min)

When you kill 2hp goblins:
Weapon a: Max 6 goblin killed per min (Real DPS = 12/min)
Weapon b: Max 60 goblin killed per min (Real DPS = 120/min)

When you kill 200hp giants:
Weapon a: Max 6 giant killed per min (Real DPS = 1200/min)
Weapon b: Max 0 giant killed per min (Real DPS = 120/min, and XP/min = 0 here)

And this was only raw damage. When you take special move, spell enchants (like VOG bounces), stat ratio, buffs, enemy MR, enemy def, enemy HP, dual weald, back stab, different enemies.. "real DPS" becomes impossible to figure out.
Last edited by Heikki on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby SanJorge » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:26 pm

I remember in old times there were good fighter players with sword, axe and pole-arm but great-maul was very rare, examples : Heikki (i think it was a vamp halberd), Akioka (enchanted claymore) and Sharingan (br larbys).

Why did it change? ,
cause weapon special can be used by another weapon and the latest change is that you can use the special at 50% rage ,plus berserk stance. But for me great maul is still too slow, my 9 fighters don't use great-maul .

edit: I think dex used to increase attack speed

edit2 : maybe a reset stance and no rage spell cast by monsters (maybe Druid class too) would help to consider base dps (without specials)
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:08 pm

SanJorge wrote:I remember in old times there were good fighter players with sword, axe and pole-arm but great-maul was very rare, examples : Heikki (i think it was a vamp halberd), Akioka (enchanted claymore) and Sharingan (br larbys).


My weapon was vampyric claymore +4 that I changed to vampyric claymore XJ (My named "Paladin sword".. done with old enchanting). On "old days" way to go was claymore. It was only 2h weapon with flurry and before "flurry nerf" flurry was about 50% more effective.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby SanJorge » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:43 pm

Here some pictures of a 75/25 fighter , still does decent damage after nerf and dodges like hell.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Keighn » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:27 am

Heikki wrote:
SanJorge wrote:I remember in old times there were good fighter players with sword, axe and pole-arm but great-maul was very rare, examples : Heikki (i think it was a vamp halberd), Akioka (enchanted claymore) and Sharingan (br larbys).


My weapon was vampyric claymore +4 that I changed to vampyric claymore XJ (My named "Paladin sword".. done with old enchanting). On "old days" way to go was claymore. It was only 2h weapon with flurry and before "flurry nerf" flurry was about 50% more effective.


I recall Kodiak mentioning khaki + flurry balron deaths or something.
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