Fixing Mages (and other classes)

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Fixing Mages (and other classes)

Postby Comet » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:24 pm

Ever since EUO added heroic/epic instances, Apoc, 2x2s, and hybrids, classes have been struggling to take on these maps.

Even fighters and priests had difficulties, so they received damage reduction and increased crowd control in order to successfully take punishment. In the past couple of years that has been huge discussion on the forums to make fighters more fun and better in solo. Meanwhile, I think other classes have begun to lag behind.

I think lots of classes need some sort of discussion or rebalancing, but mage is one of the classes that needs it the most. Mage isn't even a bad class, it gets tons of MR and has the fastest clear speed and dps with VOG and XC. However, it gets hampered by mechanics issues and survivability problems in the current EUO climate, especially late game. Many of the spells, particularly magery spells, have more or less been unchanged since a decade ago, and have become antiquated as a result.

Ideas:
-Improve Mage's survivability

The million dollar question in EUO right now seems to be how to increase the survivability of non fighters/priests. We don't need to make other classes as tanky as fighters/priests, but we also don't want them to get instakilled by heroic mobs. I suggest make Mages at least able to take on mobs 1 on 1.
-Tweak MR
Back then there were only two mobs in the game immune to magic, shadow warriors and shadow lords. Now, thanks to heroic/epic instances, it's much more common, and some heroic mobs can get 20K+.
-Fix MR cleave, or make it a spell
MR cleave isn't a very good fallback option. You're asking a pure int build to gain 100 rage with the lowest dps weapon in the game, so it can then MR cleave and gain a few second window to hopefully... I don't see this happening much. Only time I do see it is IJOing mobs like shadow mages at lower levels. Unfortunately, not all mobs are so IJO susceptible, and heroic/epic mobs don't seem to take more IJO damage than their normal counterparts (sounds like a bug). Also, mobs can get 20K+ MR, leaving them MR immune after cleave. Making MR cleave some sort of magery spell with cooldown time could be a potential fix.
-Make XC affect MR immune targets?

Mages are the only class where all of their spells are subject to MR immunity. Necro and Druid both get damaging spells that ignore MR, and Priest and Monk get status effect spells.
-Give mages another fallback option

Mages and monks are the only two classes without a reliable source of damage over time. Also, all other classes have a way to reliably stun/blind/choke mobs.
-Revamp Magery spells, especially circle 8 magery spells

It's ok if mages don't use all of their spells, but circle 8 spells are supposed to be a powerful capstone to the class. For instance, no one uses VYR, since it does nothing to improve survivability. It also sets your AS to 35 for some reason, making it worthless against anything with 35+ def.
-Something else?

These were just some straightforward ideas to hopefully get some sort of discussion going, though it'd be cool to see if anyone has any creative out of the box ideas, or advice/experience. I'm especially curious about 1K mages on PD, because I know mages are very, very strong there.
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Re: Fixing Mages (and other classes)

Postby Keighn » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:03 am

There are places mages just fail in. Many heroic/epic hybrid bastards are a pain in the arse. You need to clone, charm, use pet, confuse your way through as an aggro will end you. Get a pet dragon and slam it with clone, sleep maybe. Mostly these epic/heroic spell mobs are devastating. Still, you can grind your way up but you have to be careful.
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Re: Fixing Mages (and other classes)

Postby Heikki » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:34 pm

Comet wrote:-Give mages another fallback option[/color]
Mages and monks are the only two classes without a reliable source of damage over time. Also, all other classes have a way to reliably stun/blind/choke mobs.[color=#BF40BF]


Fighter got now pretty good "damage over time" with poison (It was crappy earlier but work s now fine). Using poison staff or casting poison wind? Also how barbed staff works with mages / can barbed staff + poison wind cause even 2 status (If not.. should they?).... Not sure are those reliable for use.

"Cleave" works fine for fighter and fits for their playing style.. but seems like "mana cleave" is hard to use with mages. Maybe making it ranged would make things better?

But yeh:
Seems like mages have survival problems on low levels but becomes very effective later (Specially PD high end ones).... And I bet this can be frustrating (specially in reg server where leveling is slow.)
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Re: Fixing Mages (and other classes)

Postby Keighn » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:36 am

Some spells don't trigger the other nature of a staff. I believe only certain damaging spells. I suppose you could test by aeping or xjing a mob repeatedly with a barbed or venom staff. It would be cool if you could use izh and a tint staff to slowly poison/bleed mobs to sleep.

Playing dual monk/xxxx you can aspect yourself for that double whammy. A rogue with 2barbs and aspect of snake or hell try a troll with a venom foil/barbed foil and yeti (make this vf or other enchants) and you are setting off all sorts of effects.

It is a damn pitty we can't disease (be a nifty enchant or tint). The buzzing flies looks awesom but rarely seen.

There is a burning skull in est'a basement. Be cool if mobs could be set on fire like blood. Freeze a blue tint while affected (cosmetic stuff).

But that's deviating from the topic.
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Re: Fixing Mages (and other classes)

Postby Keighn » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:38 am

On reg party dependency at low levels can help. Form a good 5-man unit.

Mana cleave works good. Vandermast fights shadowlords and smacks the shit out of them, mana cleave xc xc xc dead.
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Re: Fixing Mages (and other classes)

Postby Xyst88 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:24 am

I think MR cleave would be fine where it is if it didnt take a cooldown in the middle of spell casting. Its a melee attack in place of a spell and it takes up a slot in the spell queue. If your not using a addy staff your doing 40ish damage for a MR cleave, then wait for the global cooldown to come off before you can even start spell casting. Physical abilities and spell casting should not share a global cooldown.

The trade off for mage survivability is its aoe clear speed that other than Necro, not many can compare.

I am a little bummed by the lack of magery spells that find their uses other than invis, carry weight, and rarely the dex buff. Confuse is situational. I would really really like to see more dragon forms, and either a choice of which form to take. Even then the lowered casting speed is pretty meh at the same time.

I have thought about it being nice for venom/barbed/addled staves being able to have their effects hit targets with their spells. But at the moment while Necro is being figured out, and it will take some time to make them stronger, I felt like one of the tradeoff's and perks of HoB was them being able to have their status effects come from HoB. So until there is a happy medium with Necro's, mage staff effects shouldnt come in effect until that "What makes Necro's now special...." special.
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