fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:06 pm

Keighn wrote:I swore dual wield used to be faster. I never was a dps addict so i don't know.

Never finished my testing of lvl 1-1k dwarf fighter but dn they do have a huge reserve even as fighter priest.

Fully buffed with excellent gear on a dwarf fighter (100)/Necro (45)/priest (30) with full bone plate i sit at 7.5k hp with 3.75k mr. Its insanely strong.

But on a side note, giving half trolls the berserk ability but making one hands faster by 15 or 20% would for sure make them far more competitive but at the moment like i said, they are pretty shit.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:10 pm

Onyxt wrote:
Heikki wrote:Side note for this:
Azalynn wrote:when I have a weapon that I made in two seconds with vermilion


Yep. You could craft dozens "most effective weapons in game" in few minutes. I have hunted hundreds of hours and never got loot like "vermilion weapons" ... Anyways this is totally another story.. but should also be fixed asap IMO.

Make VF do way less damage as an enchant if you think its broken. It already does less than VAM.

OR having another class option, vermillion being a "mage blade" spell. Being able to enchant your current melee weapon with the VF enchant (much like any other effect like greater armor) and make it like 70 Magery or something. Would bring a whole other kind of dual spec.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:12 am

I just read all this and it's really interesting but sad at times ...

Xyst88 wrote:I'm so torn about making my fighter. There are so many items in this game, so many toys I have found that I want a chance to play with them.

We all know this is a grinding game, its brainless in the most perfect way. The game of numbers is life or death for your party and knowing that to be the best you have to be one specific weapon type is a bummer. You want damage, you want to wave clear faster because it drives you closer to that rush when you find the most awesome loot. With there still being a stat difference between weapon skills it creates a meta, one that you follow from level 1 or spend real money to make changes. All those awesome weapons you can never use, never getting to brag and show off your other weapons and forever they sit in your chest or in piles on the floor. There will always be strength and weaknesses to weapons. But from my understanding, one weapon type is far superior and you must follow it from the start.



Keighn wrote:For rping other weapons are nice. Min/maxers wil powergame.


Tink wrote:Are you guys still whining about this?
Play a different class already LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON.



my gut feeling, is to make all fighter weapons 90/10 because
* two stat builds is awkward
* one stat build will allow more diversity
* I've never cared about pvp, so while a dodge build is interesting, all other arguments outweigh it

side note: I don't really care about balance that much, but interesting is important, diversity, etc

really cool that people actually care about rp, but maybe rp is just opposite of minmax
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Onyxt » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:41 am

eggmceye wrote:my gut feeling, is to make all fighter weapons 90/10 because
* two stat builds is awkward
* one stat build will allow more diversity
* I've never cared about pvp, so while a dodge build is interesting, all other arguments outweigh it

side note: I don't really care about balance that much, but interesting is important, diversity, etc

really cool that people actually care about rp, but maybe rp is just opposite of minmax

I'm personally all for the 9:1 build, fighters are supposed to be a powerhouse anyway. How much does dex affect dodge? Like would 500 dex compared to like 350 even matter that much?
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:01 am

Please do it! I'll love you forever.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby SanJorge » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:04 am

PLZ not ! :shock:
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Keighn » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:11 am

I don't see the huge reason NOT to make this so. More hp, more damage, one package. Do i have screwed up alts with odd % even dating back to 50/50 (recall that on some sword at one time)... Yeah i do... Oh well. I want to change it i level up and do it or buy respec. At 500 dex at 1k i don't recall seeing more dodges than at 300.

Just not seeing any reason to be against the possible change.

And don't give me that heavy armour movement rate bs. This alt TargetDummy has starting 25 dex and basically solid str and comfortably kills mobs with plenty of time to avoid respawns. She is a bit beyond the 90/10 though but i built her to be a hp healing sponge.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby SanJorge » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:50 am

For me its clear that higher variety will not happen, it will be claymore instead of great maul, that all, for the reason is clear , and strange that Punisher agree to this with his 1000 chars ( prolly some strange fighters too), some players don't want to try different builds in the same class.

It will be boring as hell. just put it in alpha 1st.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:53 am

SanJorge wrote:PLZ not ! :shock:


I'm interested in hearing more no cases - try and be as technical about it as possible
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:16 am

SanJorge wrote:For me its clear that higher variety will not happen, it will be claymore instead of great maul, that all, for the reason is clear , and strange that Punisher agree to this with his 1000 chars ( prolly some strange fighters too), some players don't want to try different builds in the same class.

It will be boring as hell. just put it in alpha 1st.


Okis now I want hear facts SanJorge.

Here is my facts:
Fact 1) Claymores looses in base damage for great mauls 3d6 VS 2d6 AND ALSO for halberds 3d6 VS 2d6.
So: Especially in "bersker stance" (that I always use.) You loose pretty much damage Claymore VS Great Maul
PS. Even with speed factors higher base damage wins.

Fact 2) Normal xp / loot hunting (about 90% of time I play) I always choose great maul over halberd because of flurry. So that why no halberd. (Flurry + thunder clap is best moves in PVE)

Fact 3) Claymores flurry + cleave combo is NOT effective in normal (like dragon / shadow folk) hunting (about 90% of time I play.. maybe even 95%)

Fact 4) Claymores flurry + cleave combo is effective in special situations (like 1%-5% of game time?)
Like: I can cleave + flurry combo "The beholder". And yes Claymore is here BETTER than great maul. But this is diversity!

So:
SanJorge wrote: it will be claymore instead of great maul, that all, for the reason is clear

Why the heck I should use claymore over great maul in "normal hunting" if it have worse damage and worse specials (Normal PVE hunting)?

I think this is just rage.. but tell me if u got facts.

Also tell what is that "clear reason" to use claymore NOT great maul?
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:46 am

spicy
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Comet » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:47 am

I don't really play fighter class, but here are my two cents.

-90/10 does give more hp than 75/25, but then again so would 100% str. The stat distribution is a little arbitrary. I don't think turning the fighter into a giant hunk of pure str is a good fix. I think it's a bandage fix for two main issues, issues that are also seen in other classes.

ISSUE 1 (Specials and Damage) Greatmaul specials overpower other weapons' specials. This trend is true for all slow, hard hitting weapons though, for instance Spray and Pray is much better with a musket than sling. Slower, harder hitting weapons both deal more damage in a special and gain rage faster. Weapon speed doesn't play a factor in specials.

For fighters, this is especially true now with wallop. As for specials, Thunderclap is very powerful for both crowd control and mass damage, while other fighter specials are more single target focused. Sure, flurry and bloodbolt can hit several targets, but if used right Thunderclap can hit an entire room while paralyzing.

ISSUE 2 (Survivability): Str is needed for hp. Personally I feel that fighters are swimming in hp already, but I can understand that if you are the tank you want all the hp you can get. This issue is much worse for rogues and mages.

I have some potential alternate ideas, but the main thing here is those above issues.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:04 am

My biggest problem with how it is now is that there are 2 stat builds. Not what they are, but the fact there are two

Fighter could be 50dex/50int for all I care as long as all fighters were co-erced into that (that is an extreme example, fighters are not becoming 50dex/50int)
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Comet » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:18 am

It makes sense to give all fighter weapons the same str/dex ratio, but I don't think that will fix the diversity issue. I think after standardizing the fighter's stats, the next focus should be to allow fighters to effectively play different weapons and strategies, so it isn't just great maul, great maul or great maul, as Heikki said.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby eggmceye » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:21 am

yes, diversity is important, but I'm not losing any sleep over the fact there is one best weapon - but take my word for it that I'm not shitting on diversity. I'm just bothered by the fact there are 2 stat builds. fix that and diversity might somewhat follow anyway.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby SanJorge » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:23 am

i use Halberd for hunting no focus on certain mobs, The Beholder gets killed with thunderclap in the fastest way because of 2x2.

Did you compare claymore and great maul with same stats or did you change stats for the weapons ?
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:28 am

SanJorge wrote:i use Halberd for hunting no focus on certain mobs, The Beholder gets killed with thunderclap in the fastest way because of 2x2.

Did you compare claymore and great maul with same stats or did you change stats for the weapons ?


I compare em as same stat ratio. And then claymore will be fastest on Beholder if (90/10) (not now.. now it sux).

Difference comes better with high HP stuff like shadow lord bosses. You can kill it like 25% faster with cleave + flurry compared other weapons.
Blood dragons are also good example. There is no way to kill blood dragon as fast as with claymore (Not halberd not GM)... if claymores got 90/10.

Could you answer this:
Heikki wrote:SanJorge wrote:
it will be claymore instead of great maul, that all, for the reason is clear

Why the heck I should use claymore over great maul in "normal hunting" if it have worse damage and worse specials (Normal PVE hunting)?

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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:12 am

Yeah I'm legitimately curious. I dont see a reason not to be 9:1. Even Des agreed and hes nuts. c.f.

Jk, youre awesome Des. Haha
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Keighn » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:15 am

So the argument against is claymores will be more awesome? Ok... Yeuupp that's a reason to cry rivers.

The only weapons that should be crying is axes. Labrys isn't all that fast and its damage sucks but 90/10 will make it better also in the long run is your % are correct.

Seems like win win win win+ situation unless you are dead set 75/25% fanatic.

If its 90/10 or 75/25 for ALL fighter weapons only a fool is going to go the latter.

Sorry but IMAO (a=absolute or assinine) HULK SMASH!!!!
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Keighn » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:20 am

I guess there could be another solution but its a dorky bandage:
Barbarians 90/10
Fighters 75/25

But we go that far then why not
Rogues 25/75
Assassins 10/90

Priests 75/25
Templar knights 90/10

Just start making classes that use certain weapons but they have default ratios no matter the weapon.
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