fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby EmoMage » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:12 pm

eggmceye wrote::chill: guys, really sucks to see this infighting

how about I make it 85/15 or some offbrand ratio then everyone has to buy a respec

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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Tink » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:48 am

I'm offended, let me write an email to egg.

Oh wait wallop and thunderclap spam with 2500 hp isn't cheesing right?
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:02 am

Tink wrote:I'm offended, let me write an email to egg.

Oh wait wallop and thunderclap spam with 2500 hp isn't cheesing right?


Nah thunderclap sux. I would use flurry with GM.

Pro tip: Next time you want min/max super effective "thunderclapper" with super hp:
Take human 100% Priest / 100% Necro with full GWOT:d bone set. Tons more HP (3500+) with Necro utility.
But we was not talking now min/maxing... but fighters diversity.
(And don't take it wrong.. I DON'T think necro/priest need nerf)
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Tink » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:13 am

Pro tip: don't contradict yourself.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:46 am

eggmceye wrote::chill: guys, really sucks to see this infighting

how about I make it 85/15 or some offbrand ratio then everyone has to buy a respec

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This is fine, lets do it, fuck. LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:47 am

If its any consolation, i have to buy 3 respecs if this goes live. Incentive. X-D
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby SanJorge » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:48 pm

so Priest/Necro players want 90/10 for all fighter weapons?
I think 75/25 str / dex ,for fighters, is the best solution for now.
Priest can have 90/10 . (i thought they need some magic).
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:19 pm

Again need some explanation:
SanJorge wrote:so Priest/Necro players want 90/10 for all fighter weapons?


Priest/Necro is extremely pimped dual class that uses only Great Mauls (Not even hexblades). Why would they want axes, swords, UA, poles to 90/10?

SanJorge wrote:I think 75/25 str / dex ,for fighters, is the best solution for now. Priest can have 90/10 . (i thought they need some magic).


Yes this is great for RP:ing / some strange rare rogue/fighter hybrid. Not for normal PVE.

Once again:
Even if all weapon goes 90/10 fighters does not get any better XP/min. (Great mauls & flurry is still way to go when collecting pure xp)
90/10 gives just diversity to use almost all (but no axes) in special situations.

75/25 will be huge nerf on fighters.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby EmoMage » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:28 am

SanJorge wrote:so Priest/Necro players want 90/10 for all fighter weapons?
I think 75/25 str / dex ,for fighters, is the best solution for now.
Priest can have 90/10 . (i thought they need some magic).


i don't think you're putting any thought process in to this at all.. it sounds more like what you want and fuck everyone else.

90/10 (or 85/15) ((whatever)) IMO sounds like the best route. You're a fucking fighter. You're supposed to have high HP. You're supposed to have a retarded amount of str. You're supposed to have the ability to knock a mother fucker out without batting an eye. That's what you do. 75/25 is retarded and I don't even know why it's an option in the first place. What do you gain from 25% dex? Past about 300 dex every single fucking level you put into dex is a wasted level that will NOT benefit you in any way, shape, form, or fashion. It's useless. Period. I still don't know what you're even doing here still arguing about it. Literally everyone has said 90/10 (or 85/15) and you're the fat kid at the end of the line just hoping there's gonna be a slice of that chocolate cake when you get to it knowing damn well there won't be.

can we just make a decision please? this entire thread has been a waste of typing and arguing that could have went into revamping artifacts that actually need some help instead of this horse shit.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby SanJorge » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:07 am

You just want to use your enchanted tinted claymore and turn euo in a arcade game instead of Ultima like RPG.
here to remind http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Character_attributes

there is no mention of fighter has to be pure str .
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:16 am

SanJorge wrote:You just wand to use your enchanted tinted claymore and turn euo in a arcade game instead of Ultima like RPG.


But why to use Claymore??? Great maul is still LOT better in 95% of situations even if all goes 90/10. Claymore gives just diversity on special situations like "bosses that needs cleave + flurry". All but 90/10 will be actually nerf... With all other than 90/10 fighters get huge nerf on AS, MR and Damage.

Changing all to 90/10 gives NOT better max XP/min for fighters just diversity.


Also from:
SanJorge wrote: http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Character_attributes
Dexterity
Dexterity (DEX) determines two things:
The chance to hit an enemy and the frequency of attacks. This is especially important for ranged weapons, which far more rely on the warrior having a good aim with high DEX.

In EUO ranged is rogue stuff...


Also I think EUO is more like own game than "Ultima clone" nowadays. IMO EUO is already very furious and "arcadish" (also very unique!) as fighter combat. And I love as it is.

I give high vote for 90/10 because I don't want loose HP, AS and MR and XP/per min with cost of diversity.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby LordMortiferus » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:17 am

Just throwing in my unqualified 2 cents as someone who is not playing anymore:

While great maul has the best dps, it lacks the ability to cleave, which is when you fight bosses with good hp regeneration a must imo (well it makes life easier). (As Chedich just told me thunderclap will stun the the mobs around you, which may or may not have an effect on hp regeneration - it sure is helpful though)
The difference in base dps between addy great maul + 8 and addy halberd + 8 is a whopping 5 (if you trust the cold numbers from pure theoretical calculations), I guess the claymore will be comparable. Edit: stupid me it will not because of different stat rations on my character.[/color]

Anyway what it comes down to is what kind of weapons you actually have at your disposal and what your preferred game style is. I think there is variation between 1h vs 2h as well as weapon types. Edit: I do see the restriction when it comes to swords/axes vs polearms/maces.

Maybe the dmg-bonus from weapon class vs mob type could be tweaked? (Though this is most likely broken with all the custom mobs)
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:29 am

Yeah I'm done with this thread. We are just going in circles with that one guy who has some sort of issue with it. Ill just use my halberd forever just so we don't have to read these stupid responses that arent logical in the least. One guy holding everyone else back and his argument isnt even good. I'll go bash my head against a different wall now.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Azalynn » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:31 am

SanJorge wrote:You just want to use your enchanted tinted claymore and turn euo in a arcade game instead of Ultima like RPG.
here to remind http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Character_attributes

there is no mention of fighter has to be pure str .

And just for the record we all want to turn it into an arcade game and use the sweet ass loot we havent been able to due to viability. Your points are absolutely worthless. You are fighting against yourself at this point.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:31 am

LordMortiferus wrote:While great maul has the best dps, it lacks the ability to cleave, which is when you fight bosses with good hp regeneration

Just that! Claymores have their own places. Not in "normal hunting" but bosses!

Side note: Chedic is PRO. All starting fighters should ask tips from him!


But back to ratio and diversity:
Anyways if I must vote for "Diversity AND stat Nerf" OR "Keep things as they are now".
With heavy heart I must vote for "Keep things as they are now".. with nerf fighters will loose so much just in "normal hunting". With choosing "Diversity AND stat Nerf" I would fail most of fighters in game.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby LordMortiferus » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:17 am

Well I do not want to go into the stat ratio discussion, because of lack of insight into game as it is today. I just wanted to add a bit of my long gone experience (well I had to to add some notes to my previous post as I have forgotten about one or two game related things). Edit: obviously I did get into the discussion....

Anyway, this is a difficult topic that may or may not piss off people if stat ratio will change, hence this discussion, which you guys should use to put forward your arguments or politely your wishes. To be frank and honest it is helpful to be polite and rational to begin with even when arguing. This is your chance, as I can see it, to actively help in developing this great little game, but do not mistake this for a democracy with majority voting system.
Remind yourself it is up to Max and him alone to make the decision and set the time to implement what ever he thinks best. But I am pretty sure he will be grateful to you guys for any substantial input you can offer. Edit: this is not directed to anyone in particular.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Chedich » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:51 am

The main difference between a 75/25, 85/15 or 90/10 stat ratio would be hp. Assuming you would have the same total of strength and dexterity, that matches the weapons str/dex ratio, it wouldn't affect your damage(not counting diminishing returns on stats, I don't know if these are in effect nowadays).

Given that the main selling point of fighters are survivability, although with kinda so-so dps compared to many other classes, a 90/10 str/dex ratio would be preferable and make sense. What doesn't make sense though is having some weapons use a certain stat ratio and others a whole other. Especially with the weapons using a 75/25 stat ratio generally having a worse dps. The choice essentially becomes either higher hp and a higher dps or lower hp and a lower dps.

So I personally think a 90/10 stat ratio across the board for all fighter weapons would make sense.

Also, I checked weapon dps with different weapons, and axes does seem a bit low compared to the others, about 7% lower dps with a labrys compared to a great maul.

Here's some numbers, not accounting for specials and whatnot, that assumes the stat ratio being the same for all weapon types. Theoretical dps, only for comparison.

Code: Select all
----- DPS with a fixed stat multi using mundane weaps -----
-- 2-handeds:      dps:      w/ zerk stance:
-- polearms:
-- halberd         177.2      236.2
-- scythe         174.9      233.2
-- glaive         173.4      231.2
-- hoe            173.0      230.4
-- axes:
-- labrys         167.7      223.5
-- 2H axe         167.0      222.7
-- longswords:
-- claymore         173.7      231.6
-- maces:
-- great maul      180.4      240.7
-- warhammer      179.9      239.9
-- lucern hammer   178.2      237.5

-- 1-handeds:      dps:      w/ dual wield:
-- polearms:
-- trident         173.0      192.2
-- spear         171.8      190.8
-- axes:
-- tomahawk         166.0      184.6
-- hatchet         164.1      182.4
-- cleaver         163.7      182.0
-- maces:
-- flail         178.5      198.4
-- morning star      178.1      197.9
-- mace            176.2      195.9
-- longswords:
-- broad sword      172.2      191.3
-- falchion         172.2      191.3
-- scimitar         171.8      190.8
-- bastard sword   171.1      190.1
-- long sword      170.9      189.9
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Heikki » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:02 am

Amen Chedich :)
Lot pure knowledge!
I need add one thing for this: "The main difference between a 75/25, 85/15 or 90/10 stat ratio would be hp."
You get also pretty huge MR, AS and Damage lost when using "Enchanted cheese" and "Minotaur stroganof" buffs 90/10 stat ratio VS different ratio.

Note more:
Labrys and 2-handed axe are both pretty fast. I think Labrys speed should be reduces so it becomes "Usable" as other weapon skill 2-H weapons. It have interesting "Flurry" "Thunder clap" combo that would be indeed usable in some situations. Now axes are more like no go .. at any stat ratio.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby LordMortiferus » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:58 am

Embracing all the comments here and my own dusted experience I would go with one ratio for all fighter weapons types. With one ratio, diversity will be a result of what weapons you will find or are able to buy/trade, though granted diversity might become less during end game when you have a big collection to choose from. But it is frustrating if you have a 90:10 build with some decent great maul and find an addy labrys/claymore + 9 which is not an upgrade but a downgrade considering dps, because axes/swords are 75:25.
I am definitely not sold on the argument there is or will be only one weapon you want to use all the time, it is what you have and what you prefer and need when it comes to special attacks. I do not see much benefits from 75:25 regarding dual classing, hence the extra HP from a 90:10 build seems to be best as Heikki stated.

@Ched: nice spread sheet.
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Re: fighter (and other class) stat splits argument thread

Postby Keighn » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:54 am

Hey ched can you fill out the whole list of all weapons on that table? Its good knowledge.

We didn't touch on mobs susceptible to weapon type:
Dragon types take more dmg vs piercing
Undead types take more dmg vs bashing (bludgeoning)
Demon types take more damage vs slashing

Is it +10%?

Some might argue to turn axes into cleaving (maybe effective vs constructs/wood creatures.

Still, there isn't a polearm piercing at the dmg level of GM. No sword is that high. And axes definitely are a little low.

If each weapon type has a unique touch then you may pack more in your arsenal. Many polearms irl are swiss-army knives of pole weapons with piercing /slashing. I think lucrrne hammers may be piercing/bludgeoning.

If polearms could strike a square away (2 radius possible) that's a fantastic tactical advantage.

Fighter/rogue. Seems general more rogue based unless you just use traps/locks and ranged. Can't rear strike like backstab with fighter weapons. I can't imagine the weapon damage getting squashed by a back hammer smash. Not saying i haven't made a stealth fighter in leathers or ua (i have).

Euo works great for what it does. Btw, EFTV spray n pray with the variety of ranged there is cool.

The game would change quite a bit if utilizing chain and charged attack skills like wow, aion, perfect workd, etc etc. EUO works good as a party but also shines solo. You can't solo many other online games in their instances and special dungeons (some won't allow you in unless party of xyz).

Broken or not there isn't a reason to be upset to argue and attack others (been there done that). My only lamentation on the whole game is I didn't play it start to finish on reg recording every note and keeping a log (sometimes mmos make one brain dead in the grind).
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