Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

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Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Luxorious » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:19 am

First of all: I first though shields should have +as & +damage, but I changed my mind: Shields should offer better defense.

Howdy. I'm here trying to discuss why shields / blocking should be somewhat better and, maybe orbs could give you some added damage, but this is mainly about shields and blocking.

eggmceye wrote:+AS on shields: it adds to your thac0: muyst be a shield (or orb etc). Orbs (not shields) used to add dmg bonus too, bt that was removed feb 2013 (not sure why, check updates thread?). It seems a bit confused.


Blocking with a shield can block melee attacks only and you get 10% (less/more? not sure) reduction to magic damage with blocking skill and a shield equipped. Whatever the amount is, it's not enough. I'm not saying shield users should be able to take a screen full of blood mages, lords or so.

What is the highest melee damaging monster? Well, I'm not sure, but I quess that would be a blood warrior or something. I don't know how much they can hit for, maybe a few hundred points of damage? I think that some magic attack mobs can do atleast 600 to 1000 points of damage. If you have a shield, and the magical damage gets reduced by 10%, that comes to 540 to 900 points of damage.
However, if you are wielding an orb of health, you get 10% more hp. So, let's say your hp is 1000. Which is the better choice:
1000 hp + 100 hp (10% from orb of health) = 1100 hp - 600 to 1000 dmg = 100 to 500 hp left
or
1000 hp - 540 to 940 dmg (10% damage reduced with a shield and blocking skill) = 60 to 460 hp left

The point: IF you are a fighter with 1h, and you fight magical mobs most of the time, you would benefit more from an orb - making your 100 block useless in that case, except shield bash is pretty good.

Conclusion: I think shields aren't worth it in higher levels, except if you happen to find a very good artifact or trade one.
Why? Because most of the mobs in higher levels do a lot high magical damage, and that 10% reduction doesn't help so much.

I'm not sure anymore, if attack/as should work fully on shields / orbs. It would probably out dps 2h weapons, since you could get +9 attack & as from a shield and that magical reduction. Sounds pretty OP!

What I would like to see:
-Orbs that give +as should give as & attack, BUT only like +3-6 max or something
-Shields don't necessary need to have any as / attack at all, but they should be more useful against magical mobs.

My suggestions:
-Maybe the +def on shield could SLIGHTLY increase the magical damage received?
-Maybe the amount of magical damage received could be lowered, like 15-20% reduction with a shield.
-How about a VERY LOW CHANCE (1-3%) to completely block / partially reflect / halve incoming magical attack damage
-Completely new and pretty cool idea. Since there are foods that buff resistances (but they use your food buff slot), maybe we could have the following: Either add suffixes like fire resistance, cold resistance, blood resistance (?) etc. and allow us to enchant them to shields, or allow us to have some new "shield stances" or auras which increase your resistances (or just one).

Waiting anxiously to get mithril tower shield of lightning resistance on my dwarf, or lightning stance :oops:

Discuss.

Thanks for reading,
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby 1[WoWz] » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:23 am

I read the whole post. I agree with some of it, but IMO if you want to increase your damage with off hand, you can always use a +stat shield/orb/rune/rod.

The easiest and possibly best solution would to make melee mobs just as scary as magic mobs at high levels. Melee mobs performing special attacks cleave/flurry/thunderclap already makes them a little more dangerous than they were before

Another thing, magic resist shields? That would be kinda cool, but once players get a lightning resist shield, non-rogues will be able to open chests without fear of getting killed by traps (even though they already do this with blue dragon meat).
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Luxorious » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:32 am

I don't think shields need attack/as anymore, but how about this:

x - amount of blocking allows resistance 1 "stance)
etc. so at lvl 100 blocking you could use any of the "resistance shield stances"?
Or better yet, we could use enchanting/blacksmithing to bind certain resistance to a shield, like with hydra fangs etc., but should it require blocking skill?

I definitely think shields need more defense against magical mobs, and I though the resistance idea is pretty good.
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Keighn » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:31 pm

I pulled out my fighter monk today and noticed he can't use his special (sleeping fist) with ua weapon while a shield is equipped but orb is ok. Was rather annoyed since it was a batman emulation alt.

I was always hoping for shield bash to be a little better. It mostly a stun attack but I keep thinking back to ultima 5 when the bad ass warriors had a spiked shield, spiked helmet, and a magic axe. It was 3+ attacks depending on how fast they were. So I way always on board for +AS shields. Still leaves open the idea of a beserker class (any race) for 3 attacks (though we have beserk fury for 2h weapons so not sure).

Wanted a shield knockback as well. I always think scorpion from mortal Kombat + diablo paladin. Get away from me.. BAM... GET OVER HERE! (monk attack). hack slah slah slah FINISH HIM!!!

Heh, would love finishing moves and blood. But this is about blocking.

Shields blocking more spell damage doesn't seem like a bad idea. Think any old dragon slayer movie, star trek laser shields, etc. Shields are a basic defense along with walls. Any knight would rather his shield get hit than his armor.
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Luxorious » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:49 am

Thanks for your thoughs.

Shield spikes / studs made with blacksmithing and/or tinkering (maybe enchanting too). Some sort of crazy reflector that could reflect some physical ranged damage. Monster parts somehow enchanted and fused for resistances. Anyway, I think shields and blocking skill need some love. New crafting things are always welcome too, but I'm wondering if people think shields & blocking are nice enough as they are.

I also love D2 paladin's smite skill. Knockback and maybe minor damage increase could be added to shield bash or made as separate skill, called smite. The smite's effect could depend on the shield spikes / studs / thing added, like smite with spikes could do some physical damage.

I should've posted this on idea thread, but I had a couple of beers and I was too excited to realize I don't need a new topic.

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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Keighn » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:35 am

If silver armor worked better then I'd be all for spiked armor utilizing something similar. With silver armor its based on your def and the damage a mob does or something like that. Usually, some dude in shitty solid silverweave cloth with say 10 def fighting some 2x2 skeleton warrior dealing 50 damage a hit is going to return some serious damage back at the mob. A similar fighter wearing say solid silver +7 def with def sigils won't return hardly any damage back to the skeleton. Maybe it has changed since then. I do know skeletuns/vamp pcs fighting other guys in silver armor had a bad time while beta testing before the tourney. It was ouch on them.
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Keighn » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:37 am

I'm probably one of the few that actually roleplays alts that wear certain things or go by specific rules. Go Lancelot in his sweet silver gear and weapons. I have another dude who only wears boiled leather. And there is the guy in gold of course and Xeen in crystal and diamond etc.
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby 1[WoWz] » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:35 am

Keighn wrote:I'm probably one of the few that actually roleplays alts that wear certain things or go by specific rules. Go Lancelot in his sweet silver gear and weapons. I have another dude who only wears boiled leather. And there is the guy in gold of course and Xeen in crystal and diamond etc.


I once made a character named BlindBob that wore Boots of Blinding Speed and never took them off. It was incredibly difficult and I didn't end up keeping the character LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Heniek » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:40 am

I can't agree with ascertainment that shields should block more magic damage. I'd even say that they are a bit OP at the moment (maybe not shields on their own, but combined with full heavy set for even further damage reduction, it's definitely OP). I used to play fighters a lot on PD and I can say that fighter with 1h weapon, shield and full heavy set is pretty much unstopable. And it wasn't matter of insanely high level, I soloed almost whole BM with my level 300 remorted fighter (except for last few rooms full of blood lords and wyverns) - I can't see doing that with any other class.

Luxorious wrote:The point: IF you are a fighter with 1h, and you fight magical mobs most of the time, you would benefit more from an orb (...) Conclusion: I think shields aren't worth it in higher levels, except if you happen to find a very good artifact or trade one.


But with orb you gain 10% hp bonus only once, and shield is taking off 10% magical dmg (not sure if it's exactly 10%, but lets assume that it is) per every opponent you are fighting with. And rarely you are taking monsters one by one, especially at higher levels.
It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's just hilarious.

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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Keighn » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:26 am

YO YO YO HENIEK!
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Heniek » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:14 am

What's up X-D
It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's just hilarious.

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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby CinisterD » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:56 am

Heniek wrote:I can't agree with ascertainment that shields should block more magic damage. I'd even say that they are a bit OP at the moment (maybe not shields on their own, but combined with full heavy set for even further damage reduction, it's definitely OP). I used to play fighters a lot on PD and I can say that fighter with 1h weapon, shield and full heavy set is pretty much unstopable. And it wasn't matter of insanely high level, I soloed almost whole BM with my level 300 remorted fighter (except for last few rooms full of blood lords and wyverns) - I can't see doing that with any other class.


I think Hens got a point. My level 100+ fighter is almost as tough as my 400+ mage. Theyre walking tanks thats for sure. If anything there should be a slight drop in blocking, not an increase.
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Keighn » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:00 pm

You mean they start blocking less? That doesn't make any sense. A more hardened warrior that is in continual practice becomes even better until he peaks. I'd probably say leave the blocking rates alone. Reduction of spell damage would be of interest though. I can't recall how many pictures I've seen of knights blocking dragon fire or bolts with their shields.

I would like to see Orbs of AS actually work though. The higher level you are you tend to totally forget about def gear. If I have a shield I'm bound to either use MR or stat. The exception is Crystal def if I cannot find an appropriate MR shield. That leads to crystal in non def. Crystal by itself gives some MR that would certainly make a nice stack on non def even if it isn't as effect in the pure state (ie. crystal +7 will be better than MR+2 or 3 I think) Currently crystal does not drop for orbs or any tint for that matter. What's an orb made of glass?
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Luxorious » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:55 am

I'm glad we are all so mellow now that we can use any topic as a chat room. Just kidding, now that I got that out of the way:

You're pretty much as unstoppable as you can be in PD because of the crazy level progress and high mr raises. Mage might be a bit different, but the point is, once you hit three digit levels your mr will raise fast. It isn't about being unstoppable, but I admit something: of course 10% (or what it is) magic damage reduction makes you more of a tank, but the point is, three digit level fighter kills a lot better with 2h, especially if you have vamp or such - I'm saying here that the shield doesn't offer enough defense to compensate for lack of 2h dps. Sure, you can get almost 100% physical damage blocking, but reminding again: Which does more damage, screen full of melee mobs or just a few blood mobs with magic.

Personally, I don't feel like shields are worth it if you like to minmax like me and/or if you don't happen to have very good artifact shield which has good mr and other stats to compensate for lack of 2h dps. Just reminding again, defense is pretty much useless at late levels - you can even dodge or block, or ignore attacks completely. If you're high level and still depend on defense, well, then you should probably invest on MR and start killing bad mobs.

Anyways, I appreciate your opinions, thanks. To be honest I would like to have heard about those resistance/shield ideas, because my main idea didn't do so well.

PST. Lots of -2004 and -2006 registed users on this topic! I like it!

Thanks,
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Keighn » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:02 am

don't let cininster's 2009 forum membership fool you. He's a damn good strategist and wrote a mage guide I believe. Shawty was damn good at fighters and party mechanics. PIty in those days I was such an ass.. going throught midlife-- in the midlife before crisis.
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Luxorious » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:45 am

Keighn wrote:don't let cininster's 2009 forum membership fool you. He's a damn good strategist and wrote a mage guide I believe. Shawty was damn good at fighters and party mechanics. PIty in those days I was such an ass.. going throught midlife-- in the midlife before crisis.

Yeah, I was supposed to say "200x registed members"... but I edit my posts like 50 times already, and felt like meh. No racism intended.
Also, it doesn't matter, if you have joined this year or ten years ago. I've been hanging here for long and all I have to show for: Been banned briefly for missunderstanding and bad set & setup. Heh. Just glad to see some old names here and it's always good to make new friends.

Anyways, I'm working (slowly) on my dwarf fighter priest, lvl 21x now / lotl PD. I'm using crystal buckler +6 at the moment, so if I manage to keep him alive and get some levels next weekend, I shall investigate this matter further and tell you guys what my investigation might bring up.

Thanks,
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Heniek » Thu May 01, 2014 4:37 pm

Luxorious wrote:You're pretty much as unstoppable as you can be in PD because of the crazy level progress and high mr raises.


Yes but as I wrote it wasn't matter of crazy high level. My fighter was back then about level 300 remorted (which I think is equal to something close to level 200 on reg). I didn't had enough mr to start cutting blood mobs damage, I did that just due to very high hp, full heavy set for damage reduction and shield for even further damage reduction (and ocasionally tank stance for blood wyverns). This is I believe pretty much impossible with every other class. It's pretty much the same at higher levels, my fighter is now lvl 700 something, and he is already stronger than my lvl 1k monk and way stronger than my lvl 1k mage (important note: "stronger" does not necessarily means "faster").

Point of my post was, fighters are class that uses shield most often and has most benefits from using it. If you want to boost shields, you will just make already best (in my opinion) class, even better.

Luxorious wrote:but the point is, three digit level fighter kills a lot better with 2h, especially if you have vamp or such - I'm saying here that the shield doesn't offer enough defense to compensate for lack of 2h dps.


Yes, of course, you will kill a lot faster with 2h rather than with 1h + shield. But you will also die more often (unless you're playing super cautious and lure mobs one by one). On PD that's quite important factor X-D You trade something for something - more dps at cost of survivability. You'll see that as your fighter grows in levels on PD :smile: My fighter owns very good 2h weapon and very good shield + 1h combo. I prefer to use shield + 1h more often for a reason.

Luxorious wrote:Anyways, I appreciate your opinions, thanks.


Of course, your opinions are highly appreciated too :smile:
It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's just hilarious.

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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby CinisterD » Thu May 01, 2014 4:55 pm

Heniek wrote: Point of my post was, fighters are class that uses shield most often and has most benefits from using it. If you want to boost shields, you will just make already best (in my opinion) class, even better.

+1 Hen said it perfectly.

Heniek wrote: Of course, your opinions are highly appreciated too :smile:

Agreed, we need discussions like this to progress the game. Opinions are always welcome :aus:

Keighn wrote: don't let cininster's 2009 forum membership fool you. He's a damn good strategist and wrote a mage guide I believe.

1. I did write a mage guide.

2. Aww, your makin' me blush :heart:
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Onyxt » Fri May 02, 2014 12:16 am

Blocking did get boosted a couple years back, its in a good state currently. Sure there's more magic mobs than physical but having it block or resist magic would just be over kill. Also I don't think anyone has mentioned shield bash. That's basically a bad ass aep, mix that with a good enchanted weapon and you got a lethal killing machine.
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Re: Let's talk about shields, orbs & blocking

Postby Luxorious » Fri May 02, 2014 12:30 am

Point of interest, you mentioned tank stance. Shouldn't tank stance be nerfed then, if it's too good with a shield? Although you said "occasionally". I don't use tank stance much for other than training my pet or fishing, I don't like losing my damage :cool:
ALSO, I would like to hear PUNISHER's opinion about tank stance + 2h - I think you don't even need shield in that case (no, you're not supposed to pull 20x blood lords, especially in PD...).

I don't play reg at all (last time was 2004), so I don't do huge pulls unless I'm comfortable or intoxicated. I don't buy res stones either, so it's YOLO for me :ymca:

I also though about this: In my experience, I've seen mages as the OP (subjective, as in, best skill speed + best for PD lotl stuff/cartography etc etc) - HOWEVER, it's an eternal discussion to nerf class X, buff class Y. So, I don't think you can say "fighters are best" - Not putting words in your mouth - I think it translates to "fighters are the best at handling the currently hardest content" - meaning that blood mobs/shadow mobs are best to be owned with fighter. Back when dragons were the tough stuff the deal was totally different, like it is now.

Boosting shields itself doesn't mean boosting fighters. Any class can use a shield, and boosting shields isn't such a bad idea - currently I see no reason to have any (especially NON human) class other than fighter using a shield. I would totally try new crazy builds, if there were more meaning to blocking. I think shields should be improved anyway, to be more interesting and useful. Again, that resistance idea, shield spike idea...

I don't think I have much to say about shields anymore - Not changing the subject, but just a though since this argument rises every now and then: Should PD and REG servers have different configurations then? Maybe or maybe not, but they are totally different game as in playstyle, unless you buy res stones - then it's reg with faster xp.

Thanks dudes!
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