MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

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Keighn
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MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by Keighn »

I'm starting this thread as I really like versatility (not just the shrine). The most popular second class is usually priest. Does anyone like to multiclass and make some really weird but useful utilitarean combinations? Simple breakdowns I guess:

PURE:
Fighter
Rogue
Priest
Mage
Monk

Dual: (common ones I believe)
Fighter/Priest
Fighter/Rogue
Mage/Priest
Rogue/Priest
Rogue/Fighter
Monk/Priest

I'm sure some people experiment more than that. I guess in some cases it isn't too viable to have low % in some classes. I might play around with some of my very odd alts like CircusClown and see what a relatively low % in thievery/wizardry has.

Since aspcet damge is now a sole monk skill I'm a little bit dissuaded from some monk skills. There are some that are pretty clever with other classes:

MONK:
Sense - I like to use it since I've forgotten the layout of many dungeons and can be just plain paranoid of what lies behind the corner.
Heal - This is great. I love it for a pitstop.
Cleanse - I usually have bandage and a high skill but this can come in handy. (if blindness was permanent then this would be very useful)
Teleport - Not as useful as a cyan but when I run out I can keep up with some of the mages when they go ip crazy.
Stoneform - HA! Truly awesome I wonder how well this would work with tanking and battle roar to become the party tank.
Levitate - Haven't really used this that much. Does it work over lava too and chasms?
Sieze - I love this. Very useful IMHO.
Astral travel - Heh, I'm out of pots or scrolls this works great.
Mirror images - I have yet to try this out but I imagine it works pretty well.
Phase shift - With a nonpure monk class I haven't tested this either. It looks promising.

Combining with a mage seems like a cool alternative as well except for the int sink. Then again, if you're not a power gamer and just like weird shit it seems cool:

MAGES:
Magery - Utility spells:
IL - Small light : Nice, I use it all the time even with 0% magery skill
IW - Locate : I use a sextant more often or magical sextant
KBX - Minor summon : I've seen many players use these to block off mobs or players. A good diversion I suppose.
EP - Unlock : Good for low strength non rogues.
AQ - Reveal : Good for pvp I imagine and certain mobs that are invisible all the time (or nearly)
IMJ - Soul trap : Beats using scrolls
VL - Greater light : This or scrolls works if you're not a nv hound.
EU - Speed : Now this one I have mixed feelings. Max bonus is +100 dex and you need to sink int up to 300 to get that bonus. That's all god but I think it might only be of greater value for a rogue unless he's using fountains. I think higher dex raises movement speed.
KOP - Recall : very useful if you don't want to use scroll.
SL - Invisibility : When the scroll just isn't enough or you're out.
KPY - Mark : I'll just assume you don't have the scroll if you use this.
AEP - Paralyse : This might be useless as higher int makes it last longer if I'm right. Also, high end mobs virtually ignore it unless you're high int.
IP - Blink : Quite useful and lighter than carrying around cyans.
KX - Summon : Similar to the lesser summon and again more of a diversion tactic.
VEU - Lighter load : This is new to me. It looks quite useful.
AXE - Charm : I've yet to try this with a low int character. It might be very useful indeed.
QAW - Confuse : Potentially useful as diversion or a means of egress if another option isn't available.
VSL - Greater invisibility : Very useful and I do like it due to longer duration than SL.
KXQ - Clone : AWESOME! I can imagine as a tank this sidekick would help divert some attention (can you cast it on yourself?)
VYR - Polymorph : I have not used this with a high dex or high str tank or even a monk. It might be awesome ENTER THE DRAGON!
KVX - Summon dragon : Again, a diversion but a bit tougher if you have low int.
KXC - Summon daemon : Maybe better than dragon for a low level. I don't think the daemons can spam summon anymore but still useful.

Sorcery - Destructive spells:
AM - Minor harm : not all that useful
GP - Magic missile : spell to draw an opponent
VAM - Greater harm : not all that useful either
XJ - Hex : Probably useful as rats are easier to hit and damage.
INH - Poison wind : Decent draw but the poison isn't all that effect on mobs.
OG - Lightning : another spell to draw mobs.
IVPY - Earthquake : This spell probably isn't as usefull as it once was for drawing mobs.
XMP - Vampyric bite : another single draw spell. You must be desparate if you're relying on this to get hp.
VF - Fireball : Another draw attack why not just use GP
IZH - Sleep wind : If it works just like those mothras then the extra damage vs. sleeping opponents is pretty cool.
VOG - Chain lightning : An unpredictable draw due to how vog can snag someone you don't want.
IJO - Mana burn : I have no idea how good this works with low int.
XC - Kill : yet another draw but at least it ignores MR
IFH - Flame wind : A desparate multi draw I guess.

Rogues:
Ranged - Usefull to snipe targets that are trapped or pinned down. Moreso if they're too powerful to take on up close.
Stealth - You better be wearing UA/light. Low % stealth makes this less useful.
Locks - Very decent to open up chests/doors.
Traps - Extremely useful for treasure hunting.
Foils - Not bad on a fencing alt.
Shortswords - I imagine from a rogue purist they're very useful. At a lesser % I don't know.

Priests:
Piety - Healing and anti-undead spells:
M - Minor heal self : extremely useful.
AN - Cure poison : Again, if no red or high healing skill this is useful.
XM - Heal other : Good supportive healing is very nice. It is nice when a party member plays a support role.
S - Armour : beats using the scroll all the time.
ABC - Cure disease : Similar to cure poison.
UM - Fortitude : saves scroll usage and weight.
VS - Greater armour : Ah, nice to have even more def Very much better than S.
VM - Greater heal self : Some would say overly used. It is quite nice I will admit that.
XVM - Greater heal other : Those in great need will enjoy not going through being ressed.
AC - Resurrect : When you just can't do it via a bandage.
VUM - Improved fortitude : Better than the scroll?

Divinity - Divine spells to be used by priests:
UY - Bless weapon : Only works on mace-type weapons. I don't recommend fighters using this at all.
AYQ - Uncurse : Trumps using the scroll when you don't want to go to the bank or make one.
AMT - Power word pain : I usedt o use this a whole lot. Nibbling off hp can be nice if used in conjunction of poison and maybe barbed.
KHX - Summon insect plague : Diversion and save thy ass tactic. Is this lvl based?
WY - Identify : Nice when you don't have the scroll to do such.
SJ - Protection : We all know that 100% Inscription can be a pain in the ass to get.
WJ - Detect traps : Very awesome and useful.
WQ - Truesight : Very useful vs opponent that turn invisible all the time.
AXC - Turn : Good vs Undead. Hopefully they run or die.
AKX - Banish : Perhaps the most useful of the bunch. Clones and summons can be a real pain.
KXD - Summon sword golem : A bad ass diverter to aid you.
IOY - Divine hammer : Again, useless for pure fighters.
FG - Flame strike : This might be very useful I haven't tested it out on high lvl priests. Multiclass it might be less useful.
VAMT - Greater power word pain - A bit more useful than AMT. Agiain used to whittle down the hp.

Fighter:
Long Swords (flurry) - very nice if you can do a lot of damage.
Axes (cleave) - I'm only guess but most like this skill the most of fighter specials.
Maces (thunderclap) - I haven't used it in a while. If you can do a lot of damage then the AoE can kill lesser mobs (not that at high levels you're hunting such).
Polearms (bloodbolt) - I really don't know if this is effect or just plain bleh.
Block - A nice skill for tanking.
Tactics - Now I hear high end can reduce damage so that's great.
Shield Bash - I have not used so I can't comment.
Tanking Stance - If you're tanking its nice.
Bezerker Stance - Haven't used so can't comment.

This is all known to most people but what I don't know is how effective everyone finds the combinations.
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Keighn
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by Keighn »

Ugh! I made that post far too long. Mostly a recap of stuff we all know is in the manual.
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by Arkhan »

I am being a fighter/rogue, as it fits the bill for "I want to be a treasure hunter" moreso than just being a Rogue.

I don't want stealth, I just want to pick locks on treasure chests I dig up as loudly as possible so that all the monsters hear me, so I can bash their foreheads in. Basically.


This of course means I need to get to that Shrine of Versatility so I can be 100/100 Fighter Rogue.
Who the hell is General Failure, and WHY is he reading my disk!?
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by eggmceye »

Keighn wrote:Ugh! I made that post far too long. Mostly a recap of stuff we all know is in the manual.
Didn't you post recently you had 2 gig of euo crap on your computer? Anything good in there? Care to upload it to dropbox or something so I can see it ?

You know I just checked and I don't even have 1 gig of euo crap X-D
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by Keighn »

Honestly most if it is old files and a ton of duplicate files of gfx. And saved webpages. I really need to narrow it down. Backup after backup. Ideas.. well, there are those that I've written down on paper and notepad but god its not like there's not enough of that on the forums.

I was working on some new road templates and wall templates but do you really want 25 btiles of walls? And that might get up to 50 if I add my new templates. I need to get rid of my pcx files. Good stuff? Well, that's debatable. Anything specific you'd like to see and I might have a tangent idea/gfx/or spreadsheet on it?

There was another thing I was trying to do and that was organize various btiles. I divided monsters/humans and stuff up into separate btiles, items into another, started on walls, terrain, floors, and even looked to find original btiles of various characters before overlays. Quite honestly, could be more annoying to look at than be useful.

Lemme find some of my note pads on computer ... I'll just post the list copy/paste.... I'll put it in dev section.
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by eggmceye »

I thought it would have been interesting to see the whole damn lot as a rar or something, nevermind.
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by Bugbo »

Stealth is great! As a mage/rogue my primary tactic is sneak up on the enemy, hit em with spells, then run and hide. Though it can be a pain when monsters have the reveal spell. Plus stealth lets you grab stuff from the ground while if you were merely invis you'd get revealed.
LockPick and Traps are also a must if you like opening chests/treasure hunting.
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by Keighn »

Well, I could try to rar it. Then you'd see how cluttered up my mind really is. Tis a digital/mental packrat. Posted some of the idea in ideas and my non EUO ideas (which I had to type) down in the Tibia refuees post up here section. My handwritting is terrible so It takes a while to decipher.

Back to Multi:

Gandgolf loves this. I read it in his bio. It is also awesome for chest hunting.

A non-multi class that isn't so good and I don't know how he got up to where he is would be "Boxer." Picture a nonremort or reg character who only has 100% ua but only the special that comes with all weapons and bash. No monk abilities. It is like 1/2 a class or less so that's going in the wrong direction.

Rogue/Monk is also pretty cool even without aspects. Combine that with dwarf power of seeing and you have some sneaky snatch and grabbing.

A lot of people don't like Shadowfolk. They are pretty unique as rogues and mutli. I need to retest their hidden ability and see if it is immune to the reveal. Quite frankly if they are then they can trump invisibility by their quick stepping into the shadows. The NV also helps a lot esp if I'm running around hidden anyways.

/Monk (being the second or main class of multi) is actually pretty cool with any other race. Like I said before, even without aspect the stoneform, sense, sieze, and mirror images are awesome. I'd like to thank Shrike for showing me how awesome images can be from back in the days we hunted together.
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by brentoboy »

IMHO, multiclass is critically important. One of the things that keeps me playing the game is when I dream up "yet another" possible combination of race + class(es) + items to tryout and see if it is fun.

I find myself loosing interest in a character once he reaches the class cap. Simply because that is the point that I ask myself ... is this combination a good combination or not? One of the things that draws me to PD is that I get 75 more class points to play with before I get tired of working on a character, and there are more combinations I can try.

I agree that a character who dedicates himself to one class ought to have "reward" for being a purist, but, it should be more or less the same amount of "reward" as what a person gets by combining things they like from multiple classes. Neither should be better, they should both be interesting, rewarding and fun. I've been thinking about how to make that possible, and here is what I have come up with....

As a monk, on Reg, it seems like I reached 100% monk at level 45(ish). Now consider the fact that my monk skills will never improve beyond what I was at level 45, even though that is only 1/10th of the max level my character will reach (assuming I continue playing that far). I wont learn any new spells, or improve my fighting skills. Which is a real kill joy, considering that up to this point in the game, learning new skills has been one of the primary rewarding moments in the game.

my thought is... abandon classes altogether, and just have skills. However, DONT let people just up and work on whatever skills they want to. Force them to unlock a skill before they work on it. New characters are allowed to choose 3 skills they want to unlock. Every 10 levels, you can either unlock a new skill, or you can unlock greater depth in one of the skills you have already unlocked.

A "priest" might choose to start off with basic maces, basic piety, and basic divinity.
or, basic slings, basic piety, intermediate piety.
or, basic maces, basic heavy armor, and basic piety
or, basic maces, basic shields, and basic piety

a "fighter" might choose to start off with basic swords, basic shields, and basic heavy armor
or, basic axes, basic medium armor, and basic tactics
or, intermediate axes, and basic tactics

a "mage" might choose basic magery and intermediate sorcery
or intermediate magery and basic sorcery
or basic magery, basic sorcery and basic staff fighting

a "rogue" might choose basic bows, basic traps and locks, and basic medium armor
or basic short swords, basic stealth, and basic traps and locks
or basic foils, basic shields, and basic medium armor

a "monk" could learn basic unarmed, basic unarmored, and basic sanctity
or advanced unarmed
or intermediate unarmed, basic unarmored
or basic unarmed, intermediate sanctity
....

or someone could mix things up a great deal and create a character with...
basic magery, basic locks and traps, basic unarmed combat


every dozen levels or so, they can either add another basic skill, or they can advance a skill they already have to be intermediate or advanced.

basically, there is NO point in the game where you can no longer unlock something new if you gain several more levels. And some skills require one or more OTHER skills before they can be unlocked. (and, they might require one or more stats to be at a certain level)

so you have skills for each weapon type, and each magical disipline, and a few non-weapon/magic skills... here is a list of entry level skills...
Longswords
Maces
Axes
Foils
Shortswords
Bows
Slings
Staves
Shields
Light Armor
Medium Armor
Heavy Armor
Unarmored
Magery
Sorcery
Piety
Divinity
Sanctity
Tactics
Mechanics (Locks & Traps)
Stealth


then, there are skills that you cant even get until you have reached a certain point
Pole Arms (requires str 150, Intermediate Tactics)
2H swords (requires str 100, intermediate longswords, basic tactics)
Crossbows (requires advanced bows, and 150 dex, 75 str)
Acrobatics
..? who knows what else.

And, you could get certain titles with various combination of skills
for instance, you can be a "Paladin" if you have advanced longswords, shields, heavy armor, and piety
or you can be a "Mystic" if you have staves, sanctity, and unarmoured
"Assassin" is stealth, shortswords, acrobatics, crossbows

of course, "advanced" doesn't have to be the "end" of a particular skill.
for instance, lets consider longswords.

Basic Longswords ... once you reach level 100 in this skill, you get full "basic" damage when using a longsword
Intermediate Longswords ... unlocks "special move" with longswords
Advanced longswords ... unlocks Flurry, increases basic damage of longsword by 5%
Expert Longswords ... makes flurry available at 75% rage bar, increases basic damage of longsword by 10%
Master Longswords ... increases defense when using a longsword, increased rage building speed, all longsword attacks are faster, do more damage, etc.
GM longswords ... .... ...

You could have 5 phases for each skill, or you could have 10, 20 or whatever. Some skills might not have anything interesting for more than 3 levels to work through.

I don't think it makes sense to make skills mutually exclusive (in most cases). That's not to sat that there aren't some that make sense to enhance (or detract) from each other, but I don't think the game should worry too much about making it hard to combine certain skills that players think would be fun to try together.

That said, it makes sense in some cases that things restrict each other, such as having a shield equipped slowing down casting speed. or having a non-blunt weapon equipped lower the effect of your healing spells. Or having stealth not work with metal armor. That sort of thing adds flavor. But there is no reason to LOOK for ways to make one skill get in the way of other skills in order to "force" people to choose skills that all belong to one "class".

Forcing people to sacrifice one thing in order to have another thing is cool. But it is un-cool to have to give up everything else in order to reach grand-master assassin.

anyway, that's my thought. half the fun of role playing games is exploring ways to make your character unique. And looking for combinations of stuff that work well together, and finding a balance between various skills that gives you your own feeling of perfection. The more flexibility you allow, the more re-playable the game is.
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by eggmceye »

Have you tried ng server?

Also you don't have any chars that aren't priest
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Re: MultiClass - Bane or Boon?

Post by brentoboy »

that's not entirely true.

on reg, my chars are monks.

I only recently discovered that priests were pretty decent.
I also enjoy rogues, but when they die I let them die until I get the itching to start another one.

the only reason I have mostly priests is that they dont die as quickly as mages and rogues.

I enjoy playing all of the classes (except fighter). and the only reason I dont do mage/rogue is that the mage/priest is totally self sufficient. no other combo is as versitile. Which is why I'd like to do some mixing and matching. I've run out of new combo's to try.

I tried NG, but there is still a class cap. I dont mind having to level up a bunch to expand the class cap, but hitting the ceiling is a real buzz kill. and, on NG, you hit that ceiling really quickly.
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