vampires!

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Re: vampires!

Postby MoonGoat » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:51 pm

GoldenGanondorf wrote:Noticed vampires don't receive feel good from fountains. Figured instead vamps should have a chance for a feel good after they eat (vampyric drain). This might be a big much but honestly not ever getting a FG again kinda blows. Just my 2 cents


I'm a vamp, still getting fg from fountains..
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Re: vampires!

Postby Onyxt » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:24 pm

MoonGoat wrote:
GoldenGanondorf wrote:Noticed vampires don't receive feel good from fountains. Figured instead vamps should have a chance for a feel good after they eat (vampyric drain). This might be a big much but honestly not ever getting a FG again kinda blows. Just my 2 cents


I'm a vamp, still getting fg from fountains..

If hes on a mage, he might be confusing EU messing with feel greats being a vampire "bug".
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Re: vampires!

Postby SiNeR » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:41 pm

Yea I already posted that in bug thread some time ago.... This EU (speed) spell is making you FG immune :). Also i dont like the idea of increasing sun dmg... Its already a bit hard to fight in day, even with regen stuff on.
But would be cool to have some vamp based artys.. Like reduced sun dmg effect, or reduced cd on blood drain. Vamps arent SO OverPower like some ppl think
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Re: vampires!

Postby Keighn » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:28 am

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Re: vampires!

Postby Exile » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:46 am

I love the new addition in regards to vampires, definitely been a long time coming & a subject I have seen broached in the past.
If a character is already turned lycan, will it be able to turn vampire? I imagine the lycan in the character will not allow the character to turn vampire.
Which brings up the idea of hybrids. Not sure how I even feel about that idea, it just popped into my head.
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Re: vampires!

Postby Keighn » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:58 am

I saw a graphic in the btiles that might be a vampyric werewolf. There's a good chance egg has it in already but I'm not sure.
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Re: vampires!

Postby eggmceye » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:49 am

yes vamp/lycan exists! it was a late undocumented addition
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Re: vampires!

Postby Exile » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:32 am

I understand, thanks!
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Re: vampires!

Postby Mackey666 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:08 pm

Vampiric Drain doesn't work PVP. Why? :(
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Re: vampires!

Postby Keighn » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:59 pm

Well, casting fumbles a lot also and orange/green potion use doesn't work pvp either. I think Colt was going to start a PVP thread in general forum and discuss this. I'll ask him.
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Re: vampires!

Postby CIAassassin » Thu May 02, 2013 11:08 pm

tanking sun dmg

I went through and made a video to prove that you can out DPS the sun when going through maps at your level as well as tailoring how much to fight at once. I still feel that the sun dmg is under powered, and a curved % of health loss should be used instead of the flat 3% for all levels. I didn't have my DPS script going due to having to restore my computer from a crash and not having it set up. I usually do around 250dps with the weapons I have right now. A very general run down of dmg:

    dps from sun: 15
    dps from a single dragon: 4-16
    dps out: ~250

On a single target basis, I will out DPS the sun easily. It will usually take me about 2 seconds per dragon, so on a HIGH DMG side Ill take 66 total dmg from dragons and the sun and do ~500 dmg out, taking in 25% of the dmg = 125 health back in. This calculation does NOT include me dodging dragons attacks, low dmg, backstabs, or walking between mobs. The video demonstrates that with no buffs, no specials and no mega yellows you can hunt in the sun very easily and as long as you are fighting you will be able to pull more health than you lose. A few things that will increase the effectiveness of the sun dmg:

    Walking between mobs will offset the health gained
    In an area with mobs too low for your level
    Going into a sun lit map that is heroic/to high for your level: ex anathema (which Id be willing to bet the sun dmg plays a micro fraction of the dmg actually dealt. Heroic CoS is a bitch and it's a dark map)
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Re: vampires!

Postby xShawtyx » Thu May 02, 2013 11:24 pm

If you want more sun damage then just stand in the sun and don't move, use 300 pots. As it is now you can't get to anywhere without having to use 10-15 pots to get to anywhere useful. More if you're trying to get through to the dark area in BM.

You have to take into account the lower level players who want to play vamp... Just because you can do that much damage and get that much hp back doesn't mean that they do. You're a rogue so you're using two weapons, and getting back more HP. Also, you're hunting regular dragons, whoo. Try that with heroic fires, outfight the sun damage while getting hit. Sun damage is fine the way it is. The point isn't to make it OP so you can't last one fucking second in sun damage... There's no underground paths to get to maps, so you have to be able to take SOME sun damage.
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Re: vampires!

Postby CIAassassin » Fri May 03, 2013 12:08 am

Clearly this one did not read the post. Sun dmg is very underpowered for FIGHTING mobs AT YOUR LEVEL. Sun dmg is a flat 3% dmg for ALL levels, 100 health = 3dps 1000 health = 30dps 10,000 = 300dps. It's simple math, if you can do MORE DMG AND GET MORE HEALTH THAN YOU LOSE, YOU OUT DPS THE SUN. Ill go through and use a single weapon and still out DPS the sun, and if that doesn't prove it Ill go through with ONLY a weapon and STILL out dps the sun.

Going into a heroic map and saying that the sun dmg is over powered is like going into CoS heroic and walking into the bally treasure room and saying that they are OP, or a level 1 going into mino halls and saying they are OP. It's a HEROIC map and has a higher level req. Any level vamp will be able to out dps the sun if they go into a map AT THEIR LEVEL. Now, a side note: if you are stupid in how you hunt then yes you will die. Hell I died 4-5 times making the video, SIMPLY because I was trying to tank 6+ dragons at once, and not focusing the right dragons; ie the greens. Even THEN the dmg of the sun was a miniscule fraction of the dmg compared to what the dragons were doing.

As for travel to maps, yea it kinda sucks. That's what recall runes / KOP are for. Also, bat form. Try it sometime. I can get almost everywhere on the map with 1-2 megas. In parties it doesnt even matter that you are a vampire. It's called you need to be smart in how you hunt. Just because there is sun dmg now, people are saying that it's the sun dmg that is over powered. It's not, if you couldn't tank the mob before the sun dmg, you wont tank the mob after. The ONLY constant dmg is the sun dmg, THAT is why you die to it more than to the mobs. It just last hits you, it doesnt do the heavy lifting. Id be willing to bet that if 5 250+ vamps were to go through heroic anathema they would have no issue with it. The ONLY time that sun dmg sucks is when/if you die. The instant dmg with only 1 health SUUUUUCKS.

As for the class argument which is quite hollow: mages can attack 5 mobs at once getting vamp back on each hit, fighters can tank the dmg in tank stance and still out dps the sun AND if they go defensive clan they get 60% dmg reduction, monks can freeze, sleep, paralyses, and god knows what else to keep the mob from attacking there by only needing to do more dmg than the sun. Every class has the potential to severely out DPS the sun at ANY LEVEL. Monks can get sleep fist at level 2 and have a 100% chance of casting it for a very little amount of rage so they can spam it and keep the mob asleep. This doesn't even include race traits.

tl;dr fight in maps for your level, or party in heroic and be smart and you will never have an issue with sun dmg. races/class have nothing to do with being able to out dps the sun.
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Re: vampires!

Postby MoonGoat » Fri May 03, 2013 12:18 am

I agree with Shawty. I would like to be able to walk to places where i can actually hunt. As it is now it requires almost too many yellow pots to get anywhere dark (more cellars and dungeons and shadow areas need to be without sun btw).

There's no underground paths to get to maps

Would be really cool if the underworld had similar levels that's connected to dungeons from the main continent. For example; a map like Minotaur halls, but underground, wich sooner or later leads to The Pit (With heroic options too).
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Re: vampires!

Postby CIAassassin » Fri May 03, 2013 10:11 am

Am I the only person who uses the recall runes that can be bought? I can go to within 7 squares of anathema, directly outside of BM as well as CoS. Hell from where Im bound right now I can get to all three without the need for a mega yellow. Bat form is amazing for that. With the moonstones as well as the recall runes and KOP/KPY scrolls/spell you can get to every place on the map with no need for a potion for travel. Even getting into the map and walking I never need more than 2 or 3 potions to get to where I want to go. If you need 10-15 potions you are just skipping the map in general and are trying to farm for items/xp IMO. If you are doing that you might as well just make a new character so that you actually play the maps instead of looking for cheeses to get more items.

Just a heads up, I am making maps with more underground places than above ground. However it's very hard to make a bunch of interesting maps when you are stuck to the same general tile palette. That's why most maps are above ground, there are just more options. The couple of maps I have in mind will included shaded areas, and have indoor shaded areas in an above ground map. The maps are coming.

However, as of right now the sun dmg is still under powered. Ill do another video of me with only a single rapier and one where I'm not wearing any armour. Im 100% confident the outcome will be the same with a single weapon, without armour is a totally different story. I only have 650ish MR and I don't think Ill be able to soak as much magic dmg.

here is another video with a single weapon and no armour. Even with a single weapon I still pull in health. At one point I got down to 14 health left and dove three dragons and walked away with over 125.
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Re: vampires!

Postby Zilverlight » Fri May 03, 2013 10:39 am

CIAassassin wrote:Am I the only person who uses the recall runes that can be bought? I can go to within 7 squares of anathema, directly outside of BM as well as CoS. Hell from where Im bound right now I can get to all three without the need for a mega yellow


So... Everyone has to buy a recall rune now? The point of the game being "Free" means that you are not required to buy anything to get an advantage over anyone. That is why you cannot pay for powerful items, only cosmetics.

As it is, it takes 34 seconds for a player to die from sunlight. You think it'll take 34 seconds for a player to get from, say Chester Hill to Nordhaven? Faster players for sure, slower ones, maybe not. What are you thinking egg should buff the sunlight damage to? 10%? So you die in 10 seconds? Do you think that players should be fighting for their life just to break even? So, take your 14 hp, jump 3 dragons and walk away with 14 hp still? Make it too hard, vampires will become extinct, no one will want to play them if it takes playing the game out of the equation. I think Egg has found a decent balance to start. It may require some tweaking to find a better balance, but I don't believe increasing sun damage is the answer.

I agree with Shawty in that the sun damage factor does not appear underpowered. Keep in mind, some of the lower players who want to make a vampire character may not have access to an ungodly amount of yellow potions, move slower than high level characters (taking more sun damage overall on the trip to their destination) and While, yes they may be taking less damage from the sun per second due to their lower hp, they attack slower. Not everyone can take on hordes of dragons with ease like you, and while the sun damage you take isn't a MASSIVE factor compared to damage from the monsters themselves, it is a Contributing factor. Just like attack speed and AS and all other combat factors are the same... Contributing. (I just lost myself somehow :? ) In the end, Just because you can outlive the sun while fighting monsters doesn't mean everyone will be able to do the same.

I also agree with Riki to a degree, It is possible for some to outlive the sun damage, it's just a different case for each player and they have to figure it out themselves. It may be difficult and some people may not actually be able to achieve the same results. But some will.

For MoonGoat, I think that would be a great idea. Extend the Underworld map to the size of the Overworld. Have several access points across the map (in towns, dungeons and such) for players to reach the Underworld. (Ie: The dungeon entrance behind the apothecary in Nordhaven, shortly beyond the entrance, you find a ladder that leads down into the underworld, run through it, find another ladder somewhere that leads to a cavern below Mino Halls. Run through that cavern and you find yourself inside Mino Halls.) Makes sense that Vampires would find a way to travel around the world safely at any time without being trapped where they are until the sun goes down.

On a seperate note, and I'm sure someone's mentioned this before. It would be really neat if Vampires could see as far as normal players in daylight, in the night time and have limited range, like the normal players at night, during the day.
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Re: vampires!

Postby CIAassassin » Fri May 03, 2013 1:06 pm

Im not saying everyone needs to go buy the runes. You're putting words in my mouth now. Im simply saying that I cannot be the ONLY person to have them and use them on a regular basis. On the same token, the moon stones are free to everyone and are more than likely gotten before going vampire and give very good map mobility.

Ive already said what I think would be ideal. A sliding sun dmg scale, a flat dmg is either too powerful or too weak. Something that scales with level or health would keep the idea of hunting in the sunlight a scary thought. It was suggested that sun negates life steal, that's just as bad as flat dmg. If the dmg were to be just over your capable DPS then you would still be able to fight in the sun but you would know that eventually you will die. A flat 3% is just too low, especially as you get more and more capable of negating mob dmg and you only have to contend with sun dmg.

I just recorded going from chester to nord in bat form and it takes 12 seconds, I did a respec as well and have ~110dex (includes race dex) which is below full speed with full heavy gear on. Bat form removes weight restriction anyway and increases your move speed, as well as allowing you to fly over mountains, thereby allowing a straight line to the destination.

I will concede that an underground map that allowed travel through to the above ground locations would be nice, however, it's possible to get to far distances with limited amount of potions needed.

As far as a low level player not being able to out DPS the sun dmg is crock. I just went through minos with 16 defense, NO SKILL in ls and had an ideal 3/1 ratio str/dex and was doing about 60 dps. It was a similar situation as to when I went into Anathema with no armour, I just cant soak the dmg. However, if the fighter were to go into tank mode, even with the 50% loss you can out dps the sun dmg. ESPECIALLY when you are in proper gear.

Whatever. As far as Im concerned Im done with this issue as it is starting to aggravate me. Don't bitch about "sun damage being over powered" when you are going into a heroic map. It is NOT the sun dmg at that point that is killing you, it's the dragons hitting for 150+ dmg. Ive proven that you can out dps sun dmg when fighting in a sunlit map that is ON YOUR LEVEL, and the math works to prove that even "low level" players can out DPS the sun dmg as well.
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Re: vampires!

Postby xShawtyx » Fri May 03, 2013 2:42 pm

I was irritated with the subject forever ago. Heroic maps have better drops, better xp.. and yes the sun damage does play into that. If you're taking more damage from sun you're still losing that HP from both the sun and the mob. Plain and simple. Recall Runes or not, you can't mark.. Or fucking fly in the middle of a map. So you might as well throw that point right out the window.

CIAassassin wrote:Don't bitch about "sun damage being over powered" when you are going into a heroic map


Don't bitch about " sun damage being under powered" When you're going into a regular dragon map taking more than one dragon at once..

CIAassassin wrote: if they go into a map AT THEIR LEVEL. Now, a side note: if you are stupid in how you hunt then yes you will die. Hell I died 4-5 times making the video, SIMPLY because I was trying to tank 6+ dragons at once



At your level you can take Heroic dragons, if you're not being stupid and luring right.
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Re: vampires!

Postby Zilverlight » Fri May 03, 2013 3:07 pm

I'm just wondering Riki. Did you test this whole theory out with any other class? Mages? Fighters? Your words might carry more weight if you try various other experiments using different levels and classes.

Just saying, you might be able to do awesome with a lv 200+ rogue, try it with a level 25 mage (Taking into consideration, a new player lv 25 mage wouldn't have VOG and XC spells or access to mega yellows typically.) Not all players have been around for 5 years, have mains whose levels are 100+ and have mastered all the crafting skills. Need to keep in mind that some players aren't as fortunate as you in experience.
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Re: vampires!

Postby LordMortiferus » Fri May 03, 2013 4:36 pm

Considering different classes: A rouge has fairly low hp but does a lot of damage compared to a fighter on the other hand with high hp but lower dps which probably makes it way harder to nullify the sun damge. So i would guess that the class and stats distribution besides the character level play an important roll here.
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