The fighter class - What are your opinions

[Inkfoo]

I'm not sure about PD, but if you need tanking stance to handle dragons at level L200, your doing something really wrong. Balrons are another matter though, but unless your taking on more than one, you should be able to handle it without tanking stance.

What us your char's name? I want to look it up.

Ofcourse I'm talking about multiple mobs , who fights mobs one by one ? How many places spawn mid-high lvl mobs in such a way that you can pull them one by one? (DF tower for ballys excluded , and riverside if minos count?)

[Severian]

I'm not sure about PD, but if you need tanking stance to handle dragons at level L200, your doing something really wrong. Balrons are another matter though, but unless your taking on more than one, you should be able to handle it without tanking stance.

What us your char's name? I want to look it up.

Ofcourse I'm talking about multiple mobs , who fights mobs one by one ? How many places spawn mid-high lvl mobs in such a way that you can pull them one by one? (DF tower for ballys excluded , and riverside if minos count?)

Who said anything about one by one ... at level 150, I was clearing groups of dragons ... and i didn't even have tank stance to use

[xShawtyx]

- balance all the weapons do that no one weapon type is superior to another (for example, the way polearms are better than everything else at the moment)

Polearms only became useful when cleave was made so you could use it with them, before that you never saw anyone with polearms. I was one of like.. 2..

[Akyla]

re berserker stance: how does +25% attack speed increase for 2H weapons sound? I could make it higher plus add an increased damage taken compsensator - this is simpler

You already take alot more damage with a 2h weapon equipped; adding in a damage taken multiplier would just make 2h weapons worse. Shields already give more stat bonuses, 2h weapons have no major attribute. While speed is everything 1h weapons already start faster plus you get shield bonuses. I suppose testing may be required of some sort. But the DPS table doesn't seem to show what goes on in game. You think an addy +9 2h would [insert dorky synonym for something like 'really good at' here] 2 vampy enchants but this is definitely not the case. With a 2h equipped, you can only take 3-5 hits before you need to pop that pot, mani, etc. and still do crap damage.

re thunderclap: if it stunned instead of confused it might be OP - any other ideas? maybe aoe dmg + chance to stun?

Like that other idea suggestion. Any power-up to mace special though would only encourage xxx/priest to become priest/xxx I believe.

ps: how is anyone else other than fighters tanking? Doesn't it require fighter weapon equipped?

Yes it does. HOWEVER it is really only a panic button, seeing as how mani spam pretty much nullifies all damage as is. This is how other classes can tank. It is not so much the stance but moreso being able to take damage. Noone uses tank stance most of the time, it just makes the weakest DPS in game even worse.

[eggmceye]

i) I fundamentally disagree that all classes should be equal
ii) I think the way stats in euo is dated and overly complex - they were good in 1998, but that is offtopic
iii) it's a shame tank stance is only used as a panic button
iv) I just realised berserk stance as it is is dumb - just make all 2h weps faster, then maybe scrap both berserk and tank - but that kinda feels like the bad sort of simplification


ps: this is how stats should work but I can't see this reform happening:
str -> hp
dex -> damage with weapons
int -> mana+magic damage
and everyone walks the same and everyone has the same load

[ibrowniedefender]

What i think you should do is link what the main balances are, such that one level = 1 point in str, dex, or int. then have a corresponding raise in attack strength, health(maybe keep this constant through the levels?), defense, magic damage, magic resistance, and weapon speed
(i think thats all of the factors)
EX.
1 str -> 2 AS, 10 health, 2 def, 1 magic dam, 1 MR, and 1 weapon speed
1 dex -> 1 AS, 15 health, 1 def, 1 magic dam, 1 MR, and 2 weapon speed
1 int -> 1 AS, 10 health, 1 def, 2 magic dam, 2 MR, and 1 weapon(or casting?) speed

then ofc, scale the armour and whatnot
again, thats my opinion

[eggmceye]

that's no less complicated than what it is now

[Severian]

- balance all the weapons do that no one weapon type is superior to another (for example, the way polearms are better than everything else at the moment)

Polearms only became useful when cleave was made so you could use it with them, before that you never saw anyone with polearms. I was one of like.. 2..

Doesn't matter what was ... right now, polearms are better in all almost all aspects ... best dps 1h, best dps 2h, fastest 2h weapon ... i mean, a trident has better dps than a 2h axe ...

re berserker stance: how does +25% attack speed increase for 2H weapons sound? I could make it higher plus add an increased damage taken compsensator - this is simpler

You already take alot more damage with a 2h weapon equipped; adding in a damage taken multiplier would just make 2h weapons worse. Shields already give more stat bonuses, 2h weapons have no major attribute. While speed is everything 1h weapons already start faster plus you get shield bonuses. I suppose testing may be required of some sort. But the DPS table doesn't seem to show what goes on in game. You think an addy +9 2h would [insert dorky synonym for something like 'really good at' here] 2 vampy enchants but this is definitely not the case. With a 2h equipped, you can only take 3-5 hits before you need to pop that pot, mani, etc. and still do crap damage.

re thunderclap: if it stunned instead of confused it might be OP - any other ideas? maybe aoe dmg + chance to stun?

Like that other idea suggestion. Any power-up to mace special though would only encourage xxx/priest to become priest/xxx I believe.

ps: how is anyone else other than fighters tanking? Doesn't it require fighter weapon equipped?

Yes it does. HOWEVER it is really only a panic button, seeing as how mani spam pretty much nullifies all damage as is. This is how other classes can tank. It is not so much the stance but moreso being able to take damage. Noone uses tank stance most of the time, it just makes the weakest DPS in game even worse.

(1) the 25% speed increase would be good, don't need to add damage dealt and damage received multipliers; just imagine ... you'd be hitting with a scythe (3d4) at tomahawk (1d7) speed, and with a halberd (3d6) at broadsword (1d9) speed. I think that might be really nice for 2h users, especially if coupled with an added special for 2h weps.
(2) yes ... a change to thunderclap doesn't seem that useful in my opinion
(3) yes ... related to the point i made about tanking ... its just not that useful ... and yet is meant to be one of the selling points of the fighter class.

i) I fundamentally disagree that all classes should be equal
ii) I think the way stats in euo is dated and overly complex - they were good in 1998, but that is offtopic
iii) it's a shame tank stance is only used as a panic button
iv) I just realised berserk stance as it is is dumb - just make all 2h weps faster, then maybe scrap both berserk and tank - but that kinda feels like the bad sort of simplification

ps: this is how stats should work but I can't see this reform happening:
str -> hp
dex -> damage with weapons
int -> mana+magic damage
and everyone walks the same and everyone has the same load

I am not saying that all classes should have the same abilities, but the classes should have roughly the same overall utility. My proposed changes are to increase the quality of fighter game-play to that of mages and rogues. I'm not saying you should do it, but I do think shouldn't be so easy to pick one class over another. Right now, the fighter class just isn't appealing. Its better to play a monk/priest or rogue than a fighter.

What i think you should do is link what the main balances are, such that one level = 1 point in str, dex, or int. then have a corresponding raise in attack strength, health(maybe keep this constant through the levels?), defense, magic damage, magic resistance, and weapon speed
(i think thats all of the factors)
EX.
1 str -> 2 AS, 10 health, 2 def, 1 magic dam, 1 MR, and 1 weapon speed
1 dex -> 1 AS, 15 health, 1 def, 1 magic dam, 1 MR, and 2 weapon speed
1 int -> 1 AS, 10 health, 1 def, 2 magic dam, 2 MR, and 1 weapon(or casting?) speed

then ofc, scale the armour and whatnot
again, thats my opinion

LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON ... AS and DEF sucks ... this will just make fighters even worse (relatively speaking)

that's no less complicated than what it is now

What do you currently think should be the sum total changes to fighters (and other classes, e.g., mani and backstab)?

[eggmceye]

I'm working from the top of my list on page 4, nothing has really changed since that, except a shield bash, and yeh that won't be restricted to tanking

[Akyla]

i) I fundamentally disagree that all classes should be equal
ii) I think the way stats in euo is dated and overly complex - they were good in 1998, but that is offtopic
iii) it's a shame tank stance is only used as a panic button
iv) I just realised berserk stance as it is is dumb - just make all 2h weps faster, then maybe scrap both berserk and tank - but that kinda feels like the bad sort of simplification

ps: this is how stats should work but I can't see this reform happening:
str -> hp
dex -> damage with weapons
int -> mana+magic damage
and everyone walks the same and everyone has the same load

OFFTOPIC

I always thought it would be nice to add new stats to EUO, no clue how complicated that would be., but yeah.

CON, WIS, LUK, etc etc.

That way all classes could be based on 2 main stats, with the other stats being raised but much less so. IE fighters STR+CON, rogues DEX+LUK, mages WIS+INT, etc.etc. This could also be used to implement new classes much easier (druid WIS+CON, for example).

[Severian]

I'm working from the top of my list on page 4, nothing has really changed since that, except a shield bash, and yeh that won't be restricted to tanking

proposed changes, generally speaking:
* nerf mani
* nerf machete a little, that with mani are 2 nerfs long time coming - I was definitely overly generous with these at the time
* add cooloff to backstab but don't go over the top - this isn't about nerfing the shit out of rogues
* make a berserker stance that increases attack speed with 2h weapons - so berserker+2h would be the fighter dps stance, shield+tank would be survive/tank stance
* shields possibly block magic (with high block skill)
* change tactics formula so that it improves passive damage mitigation
* possibly allow tactics to add passive mini flurries or small aoe
* fix thunderclap again

out of left field:
* possibly scrap the dex based walking speed thing, plus maybe armours slowing you down - personally I've always found it annoying.
* instead of nerfing mani completely ban dual classing of priest - or somehow discourage it - maybe require priest spells to have blessed weapon equipped - now IMAGINE THE BACKLASH

You mean this list? Just wondering ...

[Severian]

Any progress on this?

[Akyla]

funny-cat-pictures-classic-LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON.jpg

[eggmceye]

ok here is what is done, largely untested and certainly not live:

* all 2H fighter weapons 25% faster regardless of stance
* added beserk stance for fighters: +25% attack speed increase with 2H weapons, +25% damage taken too (it has to balance, not just improve)
* tactics reduces damage taken by up to 25%, scrapped the +2def that it gave
* shields reduce magic damage taken (still mucking around with the numbers)
* thunderclap now does 75% dmg per hit (up from 50%) and stuns mobs for 3 sec, while target players are confused for 3 sec (unchanged)
* reduced machete base damage, increased speed (it nerfs backstab but it's still best backstabber)
* nerfed mani a tiny bit

that will probably be it

[Akyla]

funny-pictures-soon1.jpg

[Severian]

ok here is what is done, largely untested and certainly not live:

* all 2H fighter weapons 25% faster regardless of stance
* added beserk stance for fighters: +25% attack speed increase with 2H weapons, +25% damage taken too (it has to balance, not just improve)
* tactics reduces damage taken by up to 25%, scrapped the +2def that it gave
* shields reduce magic damage taken (still mucking around with the numbers)
* thunderclap now does 75% dmg per hit (up from 50%) and stuns mobs for 3 sec, while target players are confused for 3 sec (unchanged)
* reduced machete base damage, increased speed (it nerfs backstab but it's still best backstabber)
* nerfed mani a tiny bit

that will probably be it

nice changes ... no shieldbash though?

[Severian]

also the standardised 80/20 split for all fighter weapons? just wondering

[Eidolon]

Awesome. Just started a fighter last night, can't wait to test these changes out. Lemme know if you need any help testing egg, it's abt time I get back to my roots for a bit before vanishing again for another year.

Btw Severian, you said fighters are 80/20 - they got changed from 75/25? Thanks

[eggmceye]

nah he wants all fighter stat builds to be 80/20 instead of either 90/10 or 75/25
if I did that then I would have to do rogues to be all 20/80 too - not really interested right now in forcing everyone into a respec

but I will do shield bash I think

[Grunkk]

Oh god shawty's going to be happy.



Putting 50% more halberd in my face.