Ideas thread 2008

Gulnar · Post by **Gulnar** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:33 pm

DarkIllusionist wrote: Yes, and i guess making lots of creatures unkillable by mages because of magic resistance didn't stuff mages up at all did it?

Yes and rogue Backstab and Fighter special move didn't buff fighters at all did it?

Oh good lord. I didn't mean to open this can of worms. Can you at least respond to the meat of my post? Lay out a argument about why mages should have shields? I believe switching staves to 1-handed was meant to give mages use of ORBS, but practically all the mages are using SHIELDS now, not ORBS. Argue for why mages need shields, and I might listen.

I've been working under the assumption that classes were reasonably balanced since I started playing 2+ years ago. Golems, backstab and fighter specials have been in for a LONG time. Can you name any RECENT buffs to fighters and rogues?

DarkIllusionist · Post by **DarkIllusionist** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:41 pm

Having a mage with a sheild dosent seem so weird... I mean honestly i cant see how a piece of wood would weigh more than a broadsword or bastard sword. Plus Having a shield dosent really make it unbalanced.

And plus before the sheilds for mages there were no "recent" buffs for mages either.

Rogues still have to choose between an orb/shield and a 2nd weapon, fighters still have to choose between an orb and a good shield.

Rogues have an easy enough decision to make. A 2nd weapon no contest (Unless you using foils). And in my opinion choice is a good thing

Dudle · Post by **Dudle** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:21 am

Wasnt there a disscussion on wheather or not mage staves were one handed or not? And it was decieded that there was alot of fantasy books, movies and such - which supported that 'some' mages used shields and swords along with thier staff for close quarter combat.

Hence the change to make staves one handed - PLUS we dont get defense (or block) from shields unless we have something OTHER than a stave equipped. Since most shields have no stat gains - this more or less makes shield def useless for mages - unless its an artifact or a shield from before enchanting was nerfed - with some bonus other than def.

So people have to choose between a orb and its bonuses or a shield and its bonuses. Most shields are useless for mages...so think about all the work you are asking egg to do...is it so fighters and rogues can wear a shield AND an orb...and to nerf mages yet again?

How about having one handed wands and two handed staves. Staves and the current casting cooloffs. Wands would be one handed with a very slight increase in casting time and possibly a level requirement...making a tradeoff for being able to equip an off hand item.

Dudle

Eclips · Post by **Eclips** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:20 am

Lets say this was a real world situation. If you came across a mage with a shield in one hand and a stave in the other and you gave him shit for using a shield he'd probably deck you one with the shield then blast your face off for criticizing his ways.

If mages with shields are so out of the ordinary, we should stop people from wearing only weapons rings and necklaces to avoid the dex hit from armor. How normal is it to see people running around naked battling monsters? (Unless you're Beowolf)

LaughingCoyote · Post by **LaughingCoyote** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:29 pm

Wrong acct

DarkIllusionist · Post by **DarkIllusionist** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:32 pm

PS: Sorry about above post, didn't realize it was wrong acct.

Anyway, Mages with sheilds is very real in my opinion. And seriously, how is it any less real than horses running full speed with full armor on and not tireing?

Heikki · Post by **Heikki** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:34 am

Why mages cannot be fair in this orb situation????
They just want keep it soooo unfair as possible.

With new changes:
Mages are only chars that have reason to use orbs and now they got ALLSO optional free shied slot.
Warriors cannot use orb with 2-hand weps AND there is no reason why warrior want to waste blocking skill and use orb.
Rogues need to choose double weapon or weapon and orb... They got even MORE reason to not use orb than warriors.

For mages:
Be fair with this situation.. Just not try support this cheese. Way it is now is total unfair.

Eclips · Post by **Eclips** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:21 am

You don't see anything unfair with carrying around a shield and a orb? Or two weapons and an orb? If you're for a new slot for orbs (which i'm against) it wouldn't be fair to not let mages do something with their shield slot so everybody just shut up and leave it alone. Nothing can be perfect.

Heikki · Post by **Heikki** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:52 am

it wouldn't be fair to not let mages do something with their shield slot

Try now understand that slot was NOT NOT NOT meaned for shield.. just fore orbs

You don't see anything unfair with carrying around a shield and a orb? Or two weapons and an orb?

This is unfair but mages with orbs are not????

Why ONLY mages should have reason to use orbs?

Dudle · Post by **Dudle** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:17 am

First of all there is nothing stopping you from using a one handed weapon - in order to use a shield or orb.

As i stated in another -post shields are useless to mages - in the sense that block does not work while a stave is equiped - and no defense is added either. In a sense - the main abilities of shields have been turned off for mages in thier normal stave using state.

Only shields that are usefull are the ones that have any other bonus - and IMO are the same as carrying an orb in that respect.

Now if there were one and two handed casting weapons with different cooldown times that may help the situation. The current staves could be returned to 2 handed weapons - but introduce wands as a one handed stave with an increase in casting time - to offset the one handedness ability.

Dudle

Heikki · Post by **Heikki** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:21 am

First of all there is nothing stopping you from using a one handed weapon - in order to use a shield or orb.

So it is fair for rogues to choose between dual weald or orb?

Dudle wrote:

IMO are the same as carrying an orb in that respect.

AND THIS ONE FROM TRADE FORUM

Dudle wrote:

These are the items I can trade toward Sentri Shield.

Artifacts: Mageband, Superior Shield, Estoraths Vestments, Old Bandage, Noble Foil, Triple Crossbow,Yew Longbow, and 2 of Marsha's Mallet.

Enchants (non tinted enchants); (OG):Mace , Rondel , 2H Axe ; (VOG): Mace, Cleaver, Sling; (VAM): Kryss, Mace, Club; (XJ): Katar; (AM): Warhammer; (IVPY): Short Sword.

If orbs and shield are equal good why u offer trade like this?

(Maybe because sentri shield give 300!!!! free mr to mages)

As I said before... Please mages.. be fair wih this situation!!

Magrock · Post by **Magrock** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:04 am

I almost never use a sheild or orb. I can dodge more attackes without one and the sheild slows down your movement (may even slow spell casting but not sure). Sometimes I would use an Ancient Heater if I wanted more MR for my mage.

Dudle · Post by **Dudle** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:29 am

I posted in 3 separate threads where Hekiki and Gulnar were posting the same thing - 'put orbs in thier own catagory - and make staves 2 handed again'...Just seemed unfair to have it all over the forums and to not have the other side defended at all.

Now for the first quote - yes i believe rogues should choose between dual wield (lots of damage / double tinted effects/ double enchants) and a one handed weapon/ranged weapon and a shield/orb.

The second quote is taken out of context and i still think its valid. Wheather its 10% more health/mana or 3 AS...or an increase in defense / MR / NV / stats. Obviously atrifacts will have more bonuses.

The third quote is pretty much the SAME kind of post you have...except you want everything...so even if i do get it...i still have a fighter that i can eventually use it with - if you get your way and mages revert to having 2 handed staves - I would still want the Sentri Shield for my fighter.

Dudle

Onyxt · Post by **Onyxt** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:07 am

Why do you have to bicker anyways? its just a game Its seriously not that important to fight over honestly

kaiser · Post by **kaiser** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:58 pm

DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gulnar · Post by **Gulnar** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:38 pm

Dudle wrote:I posted in 3 separate threads where Hekiki and Gulnar were posting the same thing

3? I only count 2, and it was a throwaway comment in the "Stuff Not Dropping" thread-I had a more detailed post following up Heikki here.

Anyway, I think you get it. 2-H staves and 1-H wands is a good idea. I don't have some fantasy trope based objection to mages using shields. I don't really care if they do. The problem (and I think I speak for Heikki here too) is that there is no drawback to mages using shields.

A year ago, mages "couldn't" use shields, and nobody was complaining about it being unfair, so I'd thought the old system was reasonable (Des and I were bitching about monks not getting shields, but I've dropped that). Really, mages could use shields a year ago; the tradeoff was not being able to equip a staff. That might be too extreme a drawback; letting mages use (slower) 1-handed wands is reasonable. Or, per Magrock, having a somewhat slower casting time with staves when a shield is equipped (I checked, and currently, equipped shields do not affect casting time). Letting mages use shields to block might even be reasonable if there was some tradeoff.

Fighters and rogues do have to make a tradeoff if they equip a shield; dual-wield, ranged, monk or 2-handed can't be done. Nobody is arguing that there shouldn't be a tradeoff for these classes, but mages don't have a tradeoff, and that isn't right. Most fighters and rogues don't choose to make that tradeoff-I checked the top 100 players, and only 11 have a shield equipped; 5 of the 11 are mages. Magrock mentions that a shield will reduce a mages movement rate-that is a minor tradeoff, but doesn't really count as it applies equally to all classes; some people choose to play "naked" to avoid it.

eclips wrote:You don't see anything unfair with carrying around a shield and a orb? Or two weapons and an orb? If you're for a new slot for orbs (which i'm against) it wouldn't be fair to not let mages do something with their shield slot so everybody just shut up and leave it alone.

No, I don't see anything unfair about shield+orb if orb slot were added. Mages would get an equal bonus here, with staff+orb (and staff/shield/orb if staves remain 1 handed and an orb slot is added). Why should mages necessarily be able to use their shield slot in conjunction with a staff? Fighters with 2-H weapons, rogues with ranged, and monk-style fighters have to leave it empty already.

Dudle wrote:The second quote is taken out of context and i still think its valid. Wheather its 10% more health/mana or 3 AS...or an increase in defense / MR / NV / stats. Obviously atrifacts will have more bonuses.

Yeah, artifacts are better, but orbs suck. Can we argue an orb slot as a separate issue from nerfing staves? Orbs are supposed to suck, I don't object to that. They break, so they're unreliable. They're fairly rare, so you can't maintain a large supply in case of breakage. Rogues do have an advantage getting orbs currently; I'd like to see mobs drop them (rarely) so fighters and mages can get more. Nobody uses orbs instead of shields-only 1 player in the top 100 has an orb equipped, and it's not enchanted, so I think he's just messing around. An orb slot would make orbs somewhat useful, but currently nobody in their right mind bothers with them.

Eclips · Post by **Eclips** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:59 pm

Which brings us to another good point. Do enough people use orbs and do they offer enough benefit where it matters if they have their own slot or not?

laz · Post by **laz** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:21 pm

... or it matters they being in game at all...

Aristarch · Post by **Aristarch** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:42 pm

Orbs are hard to obtain and unreliable, breaking too often and their bonus is negligible. As for a mage for example, orb of power is obviously utterly useless, orb of mana isn't worth it(maybe if it affected spell power, but that on the other hand would be overpowered) while orb of health requires you to be actually hit to show its benefit and thus is bound to disappear faster.

Heikki · Post by **Heikki** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:16 pm

1) Super rare Adamantium jewerly:
Adamantium jewerly give 1.5 x bonus to original stat.
Like:
Adamantium ring str 10 = 10 x 1.5 = Affect like ring str 15

2) Flying mage spell --> Mage can move over sea with no movement speed penalty

3) Making rogues critical hits stronger (Rogues needs boost)