Class Idea - Bard

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Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:51 am

Don't yell, but I have always liked the idea of a bard
Maybe they have buffs that affect themselves and the party
Only one buff at a time
but like maybe one is mana regen
one health regen
one gives a bonus to AR
sorry AS
and one to MR
avatar with the guitar
rogue stat ratio
lasts until a new song is chosen
so you don't have to keep an eye on it
maybe another song gives a bonus to stats like the racial bonus or food bonus
and maybe other songs can be debuffs to mobs
lowering their MR or AS
or slowing them
sonic attacks maybe that disorients them like the thunderclap warrior ability

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by eggmceye » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:24 pm


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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:27 am

Cool, looks like the Bard class has some nice ideas!
I like a lot of everyone's ideas on the Bard class.
Having to use an instrument in the offhand I think is a better idea than having to make an entirely new class of weapons (instruments) just for the bard. By using foils as a main I get more of the swashbuckling rogue a-la Princess Bride or Three Musketeers.

If anyone has more ideas to share, post them here! I have no idea what is actually possible, and what the limitations would be with coding.

I'll see if I can maybe put something more in-depth tonight, putting spells to spell circles and such.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by eggmceye » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:12 am

generally speaking, I think classes need at least 2 skills to make them viable

also another problem is, without using subclasses, a new class can't reuse another class's skill without a hack (eg blessed maces is a hack. hexblades are a hack), So you can't just give bards foils without making them like a 'bardfoil' something stupid like that.

unless of course bard is subclass of rogue, mutex with security stealth - I'm pretty sure subclasses work (engine wise). so there could be 2 rogue specs: bard which gets music and assassin that gets stealth/backstab. would you, yes you dear reader, build a rogue with no security, or backstab or stealth, that has to carry a lute offhand, but can use a foil or one hand dagger, and can sling some sorta spells? that is the question.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Tink » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:20 pm

I feel like subclasses might be a little easier to deal with if you made them "stances". It's something I've been kicking around, not sure your thoughts. I feel like stances are a nice cure all, already in the game, and maybe it'll make things flow better for classes that play similar to core classes ingame ie barbarians.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by eggmceye » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:49 pm

subclassing is more permanent than stances and I feel like being a stupid annoying bard is a life choice, not just a swagger

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:20 pm

The Bard weapon could be a "hack" of ranged weapons. Use the bard weapon spell on a longbow to make a lute. Ranged weapon that takes no ammo
since the ammo would be music
a shortbow = a lyre
crossbow = guitar
trying to figure what a sling would be

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Keighn » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:00 am

You know, if alcohol worked like a blue mana potion and bard songs constantly was ticking away mana you’d have that lasting song effect and quench thy sore voice like Bards Tale. (Btw, I hear BT4 by Fargo is kind of a mess atm... needs patching).

Or maybe alcohol slows the mana use rate. Songs broken up into level tiers like all magic.
How much mana per tic is used while playing (and why would your voice get tired if just fiddling with a lure or mandolin?
Maybe 2 mana a tic to start testing. The game caps at 8th tier right?
Circle 1 - 2 mana per tic
Circle 2 - 4 mana per tic
Circle 3 - 6 mana per tic
Circle 4 - 8 mana per tic

Circle 5 - 10 mana per tic
Circle 6 - 12 mana per tic
Circle 7 - 14 mana per tic
Circle 8 - 16 mana per tic
With alcohol use it’s 1/2 that (booze on dwarves already has a timer)

I figure constant mana consumption changes up the bard enough so it’s just not like any spell caster (ie cast the spell at mana cost and ride the duration of the spell effect until you need to cast again). The cast a spell version would be like barely singing a verse or playing (whatever a line in music is called).

That’s a lot of mana eaten. I guess the bards dont get drunk.
What’s the radius on tunes?
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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:25 am

Keighn wrote:You know, if alcohol worked like a blue mana potion and bard songs constantly was ticking away mana you’d have that lasting song effect and quench thy sore voice like Bards Tale. (Btw, I hear BT4 by Fargo is kind of a mess atm... needs patching).

Or maybe alcohol slows the mana use rate. Songs broken up into level tiers like all magic.
How much mana per tic is used while playing (and why would your voice get tired if just fiddling with a lure or mandolin?
Maybe 2 mana a tic to start testing. The game caps at 8th tier right?
Circle 1 - 2 mana per tic
Circle 2 - 4 mana per tic
Circle 3 - 6 mana per tic
Circle 4 - 8 mana per tic

Circle 5 - 10 mana per tic
Circle 6 - 12 mana per tic
Circle 7 - 14 mana per tic
Circle 8 - 16 mana per tic
With alcohol use it’s 1/2 that (booze on dwarves already has a timer)

I figure constant mana consumption changes up the bard enough so it’s just not like any spell caster (ie cast the spell at mana cost and ride the duration of the spell effect until you need to cast again). The cast a spell version would be like barely singing a verse or playing (whatever a line in music is called).

That’s a lot of mana eaten. I guess the bards dont get drunk.
What’s the radius on tunes?
Could the Bards songs take a chunk of the mana pool as a "reserve"? So that mana cost couldn't be used or regenerated until the song stops?

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Keighn » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:23 pm

Regeneration seems fine to me (sort of forces vigor gear to keep the bards fingers relaxed and voice strong). If you mean so they can cast spells while playing then I don’t know. I guess irl it’d be hard to spellcast while using instruments. Imho, even if they can cast spells while playing the song will stop if mana is completely depleted. Sure they could keep slurping blues or brews I guess. It’s all hypothetical at this point on how well it’d work.

Potentially bard could play forever unless we have something added like songs per level and also a timer for the songs played. Then you’re hitting a few ways the song could end besides also manually ending the song.
/play ###
/end play
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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:53 am

The buff lasting until the song stops seems a good idea to me, and logically you can only sing one song at a time. But if you lose the buff to cast an attack spell then it does kind of have no point.
I guess it all depends on the solo play for a bard. Will the main attack be spell based or melee?
If spell based then it might have to be that it is a buff with a timed duration rather than till the song stops
If mainly melee then I think you could still have a song buff last till the singing stops.

I envisioned a class using more sonic attacks (spell attacks), rather than a melee rogue with some buffs.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Keighn » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:02 pm

In party based rpgs he’d be mostly a support type unit or amplifier of sorts. Solo fast paced like euo, I’d have different types of songs.

A casting of other spell. Sure! And I wouldn’t have it disrupt song.
Off-hand instrument is ok. Main hand weapons might be entirely different than what some expect. I don’t think you could effectively play a lute and swing an axe at the same time.

Need to break down instruments
Strings (offhand pic or bo(w))
Horns (I can think of none so 2 handed?)
Percussion (btw, depending on drum it might be more of a torso or neckwear esp if your using a drumstick in each hand... simplicity sake drum would be offhand and drumsticks small or large padded tribal)

“Musicians play some string instruments by plucking the strings with their fingers or a plectrum—and others by hitting the strings with a light wooden hammer or by rubbing the strings with a bow. In some keyboard instruments, such as the harpsichord, the musician presses a key that plucks the string.

With bowed instruments, the player rubs the strings with a horsehair bow, causing them to vibrate. With a hurdy-gurdy, the musician operates a mechanical wheel that rubs the strings.”


I really think aion had it right creating a magical attack wave (should it use mana? Nah but it might use intelligence/dex ratio 75/25 for as/damage.

I really think there should be a lot of stances and maybe rage attacks or implement charging attacks like other morphs (like a special but used only so often).

And there are flutes, tambourines, etc.

Focus should be on support/maintenance to aid or slowly weaken mobs.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:10 am

Bard songs being a stance seems like a really good idea I think. (Not my idea, someone posted on discord I think and I can't remember who it was)

That would get past the duration thing of a spell buff, how it would apply to party I do not know.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by eggmceye » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:24 am

as discussed on discord, this is how bards are going to work:

a) bard will not a new class, but music will be a new skill in the rogue class
b) music will be mutually exclusive with stealth - stealth will go down as music goes up, like how maces/blessed maces work
c) music will be a set of 8 spells - haven't worked on this at all yet, but surely aoe/party mostly and surely dex based, & not int
d) music will req instrument in offhand (don't think too hard about playing a lute one handedly)
e) music should synergise with foils somehow
f) music may or may not actually be played thru your pc speakers when playing
:jam:

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Comet » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:53 am

It would be cool if in the future you have a bard quest line to convert. Like a series of quests geared towards lower levels (30-50) for those who decide not to become thieving scoundrels and instead want to follow music. It could be dropped as a hint in different towns, and there could be some bard mentor figure/secret society, and eventually you need to get 'certified'/pass bard school. Once you convert there's no going back, like with vampires (but with music this time).

Basically bards are like secret agents, but with music.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:09 am

I need an upvote button or something. For when I like peoples ideas but don't really have anything constructive to add.
I like the ideas so far egg

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Roopert » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:10 am

eggmceye wrote:as discussed on discord, this is how bards are going to work:

a) bard will not a new class, but music will be a new skill in the rogue class
b) music will be mutually exclusive with stealth - stealth will go down as music goes up, like how maces/blessed maces work
c) music will be a set of 8 spells - haven't worked on this at all yet, but surely aoe/party mostly and surely dex based, & not int
d) music will req instrument in offhand (don't think too hard about playing a lute one handedly)
e) music should synergise with foils somehow
f) music may or may not actually be played thru your pc speakers when playing
:jam:
Are you thinking the buffs to be like stances or a onetime spell cast thing with a duration?

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by eggmceye » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:19 am

I havent thought at all beyond that list

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Comet » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:13 pm

Maybe the music breakdown could be something like:

1. SONG 1: Party buff
2. offensive spell/debuff with foils
3. SONG 2: debuff
4. utility (like vanish spell or something)
5. SONG 3: Party buff
6. offensive spell/debuff with foils
7. SONG 4: Buff capstone
8. SONG 5: debuff capstone

It's rough, but basically around half Songs, half foils offense/utility thrown in somewhere.

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Re: Class Idea - Bard

Post by Comet » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:26 pm

^See above for prev post
POTENTIAL SONGS (need better names): Casting a song ends the previous song

Rage: +15% rage gain, 2x critical hits

Lullaby***: not sure entirely but basically it's an AOE DOT that puts targets to sleep instead of dealing damage. The effect should trigger every 1.5 seconds or so. I haven't decided on the area of effect or range yet. 3x3 is super hard to aim, so maybe make it directional, or even centered on self? 5x5 might be too powerful.

Protection: 25% damage reduction, regeneration

Heroism: +15% weapon and cast speed, extra move speed. Buff capstone spell

Fear***: Like greater power word pain, but instead of chance to bleed, enemies run away like you just had boiled eggs. Debuff capstone spell.

*** The way these songs were suggested, they are single use, unlike the others which provide a permanent buff. Maybe they can be reworked to last forever, functioning similarly to aspects. Fear would have a chance to cause enemies you hit run in fear (including ripostes). That could be annoying, so have charge ready. Lullaby could have a chance to slow targets. I still like the original one-time effect better, leading me to my next idea...

COMBINING SONGS WITH RAGE: In addition to music just being a flat buff, at 100 rage the bard can choose to do an Awesome lute solo and kick the buffs into overdrive for 10 seconds. In the case of debuff songs, the debuff would create the one-time effect originally suggested, or maybe even something stronger. E.g. Fear would create a sonic shockwave, scaring targets and bleeding them, while Lullaby would affect a 5x5 square, centered on self.

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