In-game Economy

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Sarge
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In-game Economy

Post by Sarge »

An In-Game economy is something that was created pretty much in parallel with the birth of multiplayer games, more specifically MMO's and since then it was very quickly realised to be an integral aspect of games that allows for it and due to it having an appeal to a large portion of the gaming community it rapidly evolved into a stand-alone concept and quality.

This game has absolutely everything required to have a bustling economy, yet it doesn't. Why is this?

I have been meaning to write this for quite some time and have been putting it off because I am lazy. It is when I started up a new character that I found an amazing reference point that would make it easy for everyone to start from the same place and should make it a lot easier for me to explain.

I'm going to start with the TL;DR:

EUO doesn't have an economy because it almost entirely misses supply and demand, the foundation for any economy. All you need to do to verify this is go grab your gold pieces, if you even bothered saving them, and find somewhere you can purchase things of value with them, or someone who wants to trade rare and valuable items for them. You can't.


Digging a little deeper.

In my experience, for a game to have an economy it needs a supply and demand, that is things people want and those things need value which is generated through various influences (rarity, grind, convenience, utility etc.) and not absolutely necessarily, but preferably because it makes trading so much easier, a currency.

Starting with currency because it is easiest: EUO has it, gold coins.

Demand: There are a few items as it stands that are in demand, but really the issue is why there are so few items that attract trade. The reason is because crafting is FAR too easy and enables access to end game items which it simply should not.

It is at this point in time that I expect two types of players to flatout shit their pants. Those who like playing games in easy mode and many of those who have been playing the game for a long time and are accustomed to the current crafting system. This is one of the main reasons that put me off posting this.

I found a simple acid test though to gauge if it is the idea that would make crafting shitty or if it would be pure reluctance to change by a handful or so current players. I am very confident that that a new player would not find the crafting shitty, challenging yes, but not shitty and would be none-the-wiser as to the old system of course as they would never even have experienced it. That was all I needed to disregard reluctance to change as an argument that purely kicks against the new for personal interest as opposed to considering what is best for the game as a whole.

What is this new then?

Well, turns out it isn't. The new character that I started up I elected to play LoTL and this is exactly what is needed to instantly have a bustling and thriving economy. It instantly solves supply and demand. All that needs to be changed is that banking is activated as well as trade (duh!).

It is specifically that you can't just go and buy everything basic from an NPC vendor and craft whatever the fuck you like in bulk completely independent from an economy. You actually have to go and source the ingredients. Suddenly spider silk has value, ginseng has value, tools have value, literally everything has value.

One thing many game economies struggle with is accessibility to new players, but this would even solve that. Any established player will tell you that they don't want to go and mine for ore, smelt ingots and that would definitely apply to ingredients such as previously mentioned. Any noob can go and kill some mobs of the tiers they can handle and pop ginseng, spider webs, glass etc etc into their player merchant or trade online to very grateful established players who can now craft their hp pots for their hunting parties.

All of a sudden I can't GM a third of the things in a day's grind, which is absurd as it currently stands, quite honestly. Crafting now has longevity that actually matches a characters progression.

There is a lot more detail I want to add but this is already a wall and nobody likes that. I'll expand more once discussion and debate is (hopefully) established.

A fantastic economy is (almost) a mere flick of a switch away. Why waste it?
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Balmung
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by Balmung »

I think content like the mythic super tint is fantastic because it eats up materials, many of which you can't buy. Coupled with your idea of not selling basic materials in merchants, it could really kick the economy in the ass. The only issue then, what is gold used for? It would only serve to compensate newbies for their time grinding for mats, as older players have STACKS of gold. Said new players would then presumably use their gold in player merchants. That just recycles the gold back into the older player's hands?

Also, there's an issue if egg shows interest in something this. Older players would quickly buy up thousands of these basic materials with their stacks of hoarded gold. Sure, that too would give gold value by removing a shit load from the game. However, it just changes the NPC shops and not how stagnant the economy is. If that were the case, I would think newbies would be even worse off than they are now.

Gold isn't 100% valueless, either. I've traded plenty with gold lately. It's the real high end items that people don't want to trade for gold (artifacts, +16 Vig, GWoTs). It seems like mythic materials are a pseudo currency at that level, though. Things like Sentri's and esto vests might as well be soulbound. The value of gold wont change that.

I don't mean to sound totally negative. I like that you're so fervent with your ideas. :ymca:
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Keighn
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by Keighn »

For a wall, it had good punctuation and paragraph breaks. Go into more detail if you want. PPP The Who thong via a youtube video if you want. I don’t have. GM cradmfter on reg or ng but plenty on of. Back in the day Heph joined various guilds just to craft and collect supplies to fill coffers. I didn’t really get paid except for making thousands of greater healing potions for Raiden and some others. When I finally got a house on each server (paid on reg and a trailer park house on pd) I sort of dropped box merchants and hiring self out. I also lost the interest in stockpiling guildhall supplies. A loss of the large continued player base could have something to do with that.

I’m afraid there has to be something of mega value or potential value to put go into to make it valuable. I don’t know what I have on reg for go (maybe millions). On Pd, it could be billions as selling some items were profitable but very time consuming. Believe me I wished I had an ever full fountain for dipping.

Most merch cities are ghost towns.

Some idea:
Toss coins in well for a timed bonus.
Donation to church for a timed bonus.
A casino to not only get gold but maybe items or other coinage.
Hirelings to hire and craft for you. (Or garden)
More gp buyable furniture
Hired Companions to create a party for solo and comp controlled Mocs (possibly you can equip them and when ready pay go for them to level up).

Most games you payed to level up. I probably shouldn’t suggest gp to break % caps to level skills as you reach them or actual levels. If I d some people just like it fast and easy like cheap whores. Crafting could be more complex with the current crafts broken up to create lesser aspects to cover everything (think somewhat like draken I think or some other EUO-looking games. Oh yeah you could shatter up crafting extremely esp between races and classes but would anyone like it or would egg want to put time in to restructure for more complications?

Btw, if an alt has a house you can drop Lotl gear in it on the floor. This prevents it from disappearing. I think other alts can still pick it up though. Lotl cannot use the chests or pick up other alt gear on floor. It’s nice for unloading garbage off an Lotl. Old way was dropping single piles on a map (say grand arena), log on another alt and wait to pick up the stuff.

But to your original gold economy.... dunno.
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by eggmceye »

I love LOTL but I would not want to shove it down everyone's throats.

I think your post felt more about crafting that about gold. I'm not particularly fond of the crafting system, or any crafting system, but some people like it. I don't really have a problem that you can buy mats with gold. Gold (along with xp) is (mostly) payment for playing a shitty MUD/MMO. your time->gold & xp & hopefully fun

Search this forum and you will find quite a few posts over the last 15 yrs with people saying gold is useless. I don't really care? because I don't care that the government sponsored currency is near worthless due supply>demand.

Because when it was explained once to me that there were informal currencies, such as level 15 maps, WoTs (probably no longer the case due to not being required by mythic) and mythic mats or whatever, I stopped worrying about gold value.

I'm happy to add gold sinks in simply for the sake of adding stuff, because more is more right? but not to fix 'economy' - the economy is fine: players can trade between themselves and that is all that matters. You don't need gold to do that.

To go back to your crafting, being too easy because gold, well really? i find the crafting a bit of a chore and if gold makes it easier then whats wrong with that?

I'd be more into allowing players set the currency type on their merchant: eg selling walking stick for 10 wots




just to humour you here are some past & future fixes to try and fix gold being worthless (I don't feel like making crafting harder)
* gold sinks
* richard bartle once suggested making gold coins heavy LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON - he wrote a chapter about game money - everyone knows muds/mmos economies (to use the word the way you mean it) suck
* gold wipe - did one about 10 yrs ago without any announcement - dunno if it made anyone happier
* similarly could just change the merch currency - same effect as wipe
* make gold account bound : so only can share among your chars - doesn't sound like a good idea
* delete game sponsored currency entirely - interesting but complex - why does the game even need money?
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by LaughingCoyote »

Sarge wrote:Demand: There are a few items as it stands that are in demand, but really the issue is why there are so few items that attract trade. The reason is because crafting is FAR too easy and enables access to end game items which it simply should not."
This is almost exactly the opposite of true. Try trading or crafting for a sentri shield, or a adamantium long sword vog, or a mageband. Oh wait, you can't.

Gold pieces do matter, for those that only have characters below 100 or so levels. After that, stuff that you want cant be had for love or money, which is why stupidly high end items are hoarded and not traded.
eggmceye wrote: I'm happy to add gold sinks in simply for the sake of adding stuff, because more is more right? but not to fix 'economy' - the economy is fine: players can trade between themselves and that is all that matters. You don't need gold to do that.
Yes please. Someone has previously suggested having the coin exchange merchant do gp for addy coins, how about gp for crystal, glass and silver coins instead? By the time you've collected enough glass coins for a set of Nightslayer gear you've already out leveled needing it. Make it a good gold sink for lower levels, and therefor gp would have "value."
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by eggmceye »

what are the informal currencies now, on the different servers?
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by LaughingCoyote »

eggmceye wrote:what are the informal currencies now, on the different servers?
Probably the same as you've listed. I traded like 50 mythicking ingredients for a warrior band off emo today,. People roll for level 15 maps in high end parties, where they will pass on a plain +9 wep, etc.
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.
eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by eggmceye »

the economy discussion is way more interesting when talking about the informal currencies, which NOBODY designed
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by eggmceye »

what abt this guy
pawnshop.png
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Onyxt
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by Onyxt »

eggmceye wrote:what abt this guy
pawnshop.png
So I've dumped a lot of gold into that fuck over the years. Its always been garbage items though.
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Kynt
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by Kynt »

"Good day to you partner! I'm Pawn Shop and I can already tell that I'll be your best friend in this forsaken camp. A spare weapon, some gold, a small gem, is all I want in exchange of the equipment you'll need on whatever quest you might undertake. Now, now, now...Don't be shy. All of my items are guaranteed for life and come with a two day warranty!"
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by EmoMage »

Onyxt wrote:
eggmceye wrote:what abt this guy
pawnshop.png
So I've dumped a lot of gold into that fuck over the years. Its always been garbage items though.
same. as well as, the only time i use that bastard is when i'm selling shit to empty out some of my chests.
eggmceye wrote:
ParadoxOfChoice wrote: Zombie using bow/sling probably shouldn't give disease.

the zombies are pulling the arrows out of their ass
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by Tink »

If you want gold to matter, you can always give WoW a chance.
But you'll run into the same thing, you'll play the Auction House, and get gold capped, and then it stops mattering.

WoW: Use gold for everything, there is no Item for Item trades generally.

EUO: Use gold for some things, trade item for item at higher levels.

So there IS an economy, it just doesn't line up with what you think it should be.
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by 1[WoWz] »

eggmceye wrote:what are the informal currencies now, on the different servers?
Here are some:
Artifacts for mythical materials
Adamantium coins bought from one player and sent to another player
Level 15 maps
Wands of Transferrence

I don't think the currency and economy is bad at the moment. You can get your hands on a decent set of end game gear fairly easily and then work towards the extra hard to find stuff (Esto's vest, ironfist cap, etc.) later.
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Keighn
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by Keighn »

That quote on the merch.. where have I seen that before?

Oh and I forgot the biggest gold sink: the trainers at the university. I believe you can purchase a skill % for an ever increasing price. If I was at the library I’d check really quick and put the guide up from 0% - 100% the cost for each and a grand total. There’s your gold sink baby. (It is now I baffled to allow 100%?

All skills covered?)
ZUPS!!!!
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by eggmceye »

Onyxt wrote:
eggmceye wrote:what abt this guy
pawnshop.png
So I've dumped a lot of gold into that fuck over the years. Its always been garbage items though.
what if I told you (insert moprheus image macro) that there was a 1/1000 chance of him selling you an artefact ? :whistle:
Onyxt
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by Onyxt »

eggmceye wrote:
Onyxt wrote:
eggmceye wrote:what abt this guy
pawnshop.png
So I've dumped a lot of gold into that fuck over the years. Its always been garbage items though.
what if I told you (insert moprheus image macro) that there was a 1/1000 chance of him selling you an artefact ? :whistle:
With the icon showing the item you're buying, you can see tints (if its a visible one) so you'd see if it was an artifact. Just a matter of luck at that point.
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EmoMage
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by EmoMage »

yeah. you can see the glowing.
eggmceye wrote:
ParadoxOfChoice wrote: Zombie using bow/sling probably shouldn't give disease.

the zombies are pulling the arrows out of their ass
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by eggmceye »

further proof that i am full of shit
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EmoMage
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Re: In-game Economy

Post by EmoMage »

you are not. X-D X-D X-D X-D

that made me giggle tho
eggmceye wrote:
ParadoxOfChoice wrote: Zombie using bow/sling probably shouldn't give disease.

the zombies are pulling the arrows out of their ass
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