Lets talk about class identity!

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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Omnidescent » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:19 am

*Hears some speaking of "Smoke Bomb"*

Speaking of it, it'd make sense if Smoke Bomb also blinded the nearby hostile mobs.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Rumper » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:24 pm

As a main monk player I don't think monks should get AOE, it's a welcome change but still. On PD, one doesn't even have to be lvl 1K to safely clear an epic dragon in a 1v1. Just lvl 400 will do. Even a lvl 250 can do with alot of vigour. (On a side note I've been clearing epic KTOS since lvl 400) Though it may be nerverwrecking as it can easily 1 shot you still :p. Point is you can clear out whole rooms of epic dragons as you have your sense + seize combo. Ok sure it will take longer. But I don"t know about any other class who can do the same "safely" and without needing skill.

As for necroes, I don't think 10 str/90 int is the way to go. You get bonus hp from from bone armour. So maybe 10 dex / 90 int would be more interesting. Bone weapons need something extra, not just 10% extra damage but something that would make players want to play with bone weapons because it offers an advantage. Maybe bone can lower enemy MR bit by bit. Like Leech 1 to 10 MR every hit temporarily. Makes it more worthwhle to use bone weapon while increasing your damage and survivability. I am of the mindset that necro is a high risk. You're dealing with souls afterall. It has to be difficult.

Though endgame that flat MR leech won't help, so maybe make it percentage bonus. The longer you stay in combat with a necro, they worse you'll feel. Now on the other hand a necro shouldn't be able to stay in combat for that long. So maybe make this a toggle avaible only on bone weapons that with each hit and percentage of your mana is deducted and that amount is leeched.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 pm

But the thing is especially from a 1k perspective is clear speed is everything. Its super dangerous to go straight to epic. Basically pointless in the current state of the game. When every other class (if you exclude lriest, this is pd LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON) can absolutely outshine you in clear speed by a metric freaking mile something's needed LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON. Even if it's aspects scale with stats just like enchants, something. .I love playing monk they are just missing the final touch to me and that only thing is some sort of aoe or a hair more flat damage. Other than that monks are great.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Rumper » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:37 pm

The game isn't meant for PD but for reg, so... for a lvl 500 it's a challenge, but for lvl 1K you can just bulldoze your way through everything making clear speed important.
Flat more damage won't give that final touch you want. Cause your single target DPS is offcharts. I basically think I traded in my AOE dps capabilities for more single target damage.
It takes me less that 4 seconds to kill an epic black dragon with Nechtan, I'm not even 1K yet and neither am I using sleeping fist. Mind you it has 3500 hp. However it's nothing like necro who takes 6 ~ 8 seconds to clear a room full of em...

Epic balrons on the other hand are scary as they can 2 shot me. But atleast I can take em on, while necroes don't stand a chance in a frontal encounter, which they aren't supposed to do anyway.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby TheOneGuy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:06 am

I love bone armour because it adds a class specific buff into the items. If every class got a special Armour type that gave specific buffs it would be amazing!
rouges = Dodge chance & BS damage
Priest = damage reflect?
warriors = weapon damage and damage reductions
monk = attack speed
mage = bonus MR ? or AEP resistance idk.

Another thought for monks, the identity is really "On hit elusive fighter" so if you want an AOE answer maybe every 5th hit or 7th hit you could cast a spell associated with it
aspect of the hydra (Every X many hits casts Vog)
aspect of the drakev(Every X many hits casts Fire wind)
aspect of the yeti (Every X many hits casts Ice wind)
aspect of the snake (Every X many hits casts Poison wind? or Cone of Acid)
aspect of the turtle (Every X many hits Casts Mani)

I think Necro is a "Debuffing caster fighter hybrid"
To enforce that identity i would:
Turn HoB into an aoe Curse
Make HOB Only refresh the duration when recast NOT STACK, however apply a debuff that makes any instance of damage against the target deal HoB damage again.
So if Hob hits for 100 the first instance hits for 100, the next hits for 100 and triggers the curse causing HoB to hit again(+100). But melee attacks would also hit for the bonus 100 as well

I would also add a defuff when hit by a hexblade weapon that will increase damage taken (+10% ?) for 10s

Lastly, I would add a blight spell that will poison, bleed and confuse an enemy.
all i want is a test server for maped then ill be happy ...
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby TheOneGuy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:18 am

A shadow priest sounds awesome!
The 2 ways i can see to do it off the top of my head.
1 Add a priest specific resource that builds up as you heal and discharges in your shadow state! You whould enter a shadow form that changes your heal abilities to damaging abilities
2 targeting enemies with heal other causes damage (basses on level?)
(Xen Mani) (maybe 10+25% of level as damage)
(XEN VAS MANI) (50+150% level?) or maybe int based idk

I think regardless of if you implement shadow priest or not, there should be a player targeting vog that casts mani when it hits!
all i want is a test server for maped then ill be happy ...
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:42 am

Rumper wrote:The game isn't meant for PD but for reg, so...


I think this is a mistake to think this. I'm not sure what server the game is meant for to be honest but I would not assume that it is reg, at least not anymore. It's an interesting topic though.

You might be giving me too much credit as a designer. I have ideas, pinch other peoples ideas, slap it all together and hope for the best.

There was no meaningful design decision that led to heroic drags having X difficulty at 500 or 1k or whatever.



with necros, unless anyone else provides a good reason, I'm going with 10/90 str/int - mostly from a coding perspective. Firstly, it's done, and secondly it seems to make the most sense, engine wise. But I could be talked out of it.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Mackey » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:54 am

Best thread I've seen in years.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:59 pm

Rumper wrote:The game isn't meant for PD.

But the fact of the matter is, its an integral part of the game, its not a part of the game that is forgotten and left behind. Sure the game is made for reg, but also it isnt an abandoned part of the game that isnt ever thought about. The beginning post of this thread at the bottom was a disclaimer that 99% of what i say is based off of a 1k perspective of the game, which is where i play. haha Its a part of the game that needs to be thought about if there is to be a PD server at all really. It may be a bias opinion but its a valid one. For every class, not just monks.

Edit: I also dont really think i can speak with any sort of validity towards reg because i simply dont play it which is why i dont comment about the state of reg.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Zilverlight » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:56 pm

TheOneGuy wrote:I think Necro is a "Debuffing caster fighter hybrid"
To enforce that identity i would:
Turn HoB into an aoe Curse
Make HOB Only refresh the duration when recast NOT STACK, however apply a debuff that makes any instance of damage against the target deal HoB damage again.
So if Hob hits for 100 the first instance hits for 100, the next hits for 100 and triggers the curse causing HoB to hit again(+100). But melee attacks would also hit for the bonus 100 as well.
I would also add a defuff when hit by a hexblade weapon that will increase damage taken (+10% ?) for 10s


The HoB adding a debuff that increases damage is a good idea. Having it reset the duration when cast again, at least the affected tiles, and increase damage to monsters in the AoE from any source (other than HoB.) Instead of the hexblade adding the increase damage taken by 10%, have HoB add the debuff to any monster standing within the AoE. This would encourage use in parties, wouldn't cause significant lag (which I still seem to get when 5 or more HoB are fired off in an area) and can encourage a solo Necromancer to cast HoB, then charge in to deal increased damage with the hexblades, instead of simply standing back and spamming HoB over and over again.

To encourage hexblade use, the damage from hexblades would have to out-damage the damage from HoB. Otherwise, what's the point? Hexblades puts the necromancer into the fray and HoB can be cast not only from safety, but onto a wide area repeatedly to deal devastating damage over time.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby LaughingCoyote » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:04 am

Being playing the new necromancer for the last two weeks now.

It is still a very fun class, just not as OP as it was with the HoB spam. With the 7 second cooldown you can cast a new HoB a split second before the old one expires. You have to actually think about placement, and lure monsters into the HoB instead of spamming the entire screen. Barbed and venomous staffs/necro weps to proc with HoB are worth using now, since you can't kill sem-instantly with a stack of HoBs anymore.

For harder single mobs its now worth using hexblades to melee with as you HoB, possibly doubling your dps, although I still switch to staffs to conserve mana usage when I'm farming groups of weaker mobs.

It has also encouraged necro as a support class since you can't solo everything anymore, mainly for Soul Transfer, Corpse Explosion and Death Ward. People still ask for a HoB toggle in options like you can with IVPY though. MPT still feels sticky/buggy when monsters drop items, not sure if that's just my imagination though. I think ideally MPTs should end and have their cooldown reset when the monster you Soul transfer dies before the cooldown ends as it is quite easy to hit the wrong mob with it while the hybrid blood wyvern you intended to CC kills you and the entire party.

Haven't tried making a new necro from scratch to see how its effected low level necros, but I suspect necromancers are pretty much perfect now.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby LaughingCoyote » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:26 am

As for priests, I tried making a pure priest on Weekly and it was horrible. I don't know if the last time I played pure priest was before most of the spells got nerfed to oblivion, or if I just have some weird nostalgia for it.

The problem is other than Mani spamming, the piety school is either useless (S, VS) or made redundant by GM inscription (greater health and protection scrolls). And if you go the mace/str route, your DoT and AoE do very low dps or cant break MR of appropriate mobs at your level. Even the quintessential Turn Undead spell is useless now as you increase in level.

I know that priests were nerfed because everyone at one point went Fighter/priest Mage/priest Rogue/priest etc, but atm it seems to have created a situation where the only reason to go priest is to have 30% piety for Mani spamming.

If necromancer hexblades can be based off int, maybe Priest spells can be based off strength or level instead of int? Faith comes from "inner strength" can be a lore justification.

I really agree with Comet that the divinity spells need a boost that improves with scaling.

Also have Armour and Fortitude give a fixed buff (say +10 def, +150hp), and VS and VUM scale with level so that VUM exceeds Greater Healths in HP boost. This would make piety more useful and give priests more ways to buff their party members. At the moment the only time when priests have been necessary in a party is when we go up against Epic scripted bosses.

P.S. for some strange reason there is two version of Flame Strike on Weekly. Not sure if this is what happens when you read two Flame Strike tomes?

P.P.S. Its also really annoying to have to find a cursed scroll of uncurse to UnBless a weapon, while necromancers can simply cast Dark Ritual twice. Seems like an out of date mechanic.
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eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:59 pm

LaughingCoyote wrote: but I suspect necromancers are pretty much perfect now.


:aus: trust in your suspicions
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:02 pm

LaughingCoyote wrote:P.P.S. Its also really annoying to have to find a cursed scroll of uncurse to UnBless a weapon, while necromancers can simply cast Dark Ritual twice. Seems like an out of date mechanic.


I mean I'm not even sure if unblessing is meant to be a thing - certainly not thought hard about

anyway, priests are the worst pure class and I've threatened (on twitter) to delete them (I think)
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:04 pm

eggmceye wrote:
LaughingCoyote wrote:P.P.S. Its also really annoying to have to find a cursed scroll of uncurse to UnBless a weapon, while necromancers can simply cast Dark Ritual twice. Seems like an out of date mechanic.


I mean I'm not even sure if unblessing is meant to be a thing - certainly not thought hard about

anyway, priests are the worst pure class and I've threatened (on twitter) to delete them (I think)

As much as it would suck to lose mani, it would make vamp weapons VASTLY more valuable.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:06 pm

Also to make half trolls viable im pretty sure the only thing you would need to do is change berserk stance from being 25% for two handed weapons to 25% for ALL weapons.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:07 pm

Azalynn wrote:Also to make half trolls viable im pretty sure the only thing you would need to do is change berserk stance from being 25% for two handed weapons to 25% for ALL weapons.

Or just make it innate within half troll that when you are a half troll you attack 25% faster when dual weilding. Would keep it from breaking every race in the game i guess.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:36 pm

I'm not deleting priests
but am keen to revamp them one day (maybe by time euo turns 20?)
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby ~SF~ » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 pm

Quick question... can a class get Medium armor? It's pretty worthless compared to other alternatives... heavy is always better and medium doesn't work with rogue abilities...

Idk how it could be incorporated - unless you want to go for a less-tanky, more bursty option for priests to get into. There's a ton of potential, just a bunch of "what ifs" and "wouldn't it be cool ifs" For instance, give priests tint+equipment+stat spell damage scaling if they sacrifice heavy survivability for a full suit of medium? (Trading some brawn for some boom...)

Just seems very underutilized atm... Thoughts?
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Keighn » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:29 am

I thought medium worked but with much reduced chances.
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