shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Severian » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:23 am

for a more accurate analysis ... you really need a look at the sample of characters that have levelled in the past 6 months I think ... not just look at the entire population of characters that exist ...
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby LaughingCoyote » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:54 am

Khelben wrote:Using the PD ladder for comparison doesn't prove anything. Winning the ladder merely requires you to put in some big playing time at the start of the month to discourage other people from playing the ladder.

Scrap the ability for dualclassing priests, make mages put some points/gear into strength for more hp/load, other classes have had to dump stats/gear for int/MR anyway. People paying $5-$20 for a mage/rogue/fighterband should tell you something.

- Let all races dual wield.
- Change half-troll bonus
- Increase MR gained from str/dex


What bollocks it doesn't prove anything. If human dual/priests were so uber, why wouldn't everyone who competed in the PD ladders bother with any other race/combination? You're still competing with all the others who are trying to level ASAP at the start of the month, so of course it matters.

Also, letting all races dual-wield would essentially eliminate the main difference between fighters and rogues. Great idea!
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Broden » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:05 pm

eggmceye wrote:* making versatility work for all races


This seems like it would be the easiest fix. It alone will create more interest in playing difference races.

Don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to the other suggested changes. However, I do believe some of them will require a great deal of re-balancing work to keep the game at the same enjoyable level.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Keighn » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:09 pm

Now that chests are lethal again Rogues have a huge difference than fighters. Ranged, and traps. I'll admit I've used the dual classing with priest for quite a few alts (I think, I'd have to count which - mostly wizard/priests I believe), but I'm also testing out some others on pd. I hate sharding harder mobs on mage as dragons and such just annoy me when they move or blast me; so I have a few alts in the works for rogue/mage and fighter/mage.

Rogue/Priest does seem optimal for cartography and treasure finding, if for the useful detection of traps.
Rogue/Mage is useful for cartography for the invisibility to get to the chest and get out. Unless you happen to be human in which you could just put 100 on dex and the rest on int and be a blasting treasure collector.
Rogue/Fighter seems to work pretty well for humans. I don't know how hawk or tc played theirs but I do know it made me millions of gp off of yellow pot resale.

Your big stickler is UA. Many many priests use the nonclassed ua situation to emlulate a fighter. I say make Monk a new class.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Severian » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:12 pm

LaughingCoyote wrote:Also, letting all races dual-wield would essentially eliminate the main difference between fighters and rogues. Great idea!


Hmm, I would hope that dual-wielding isn't the main difference between fighters and rogues. I would say stealth/backstab vs hp/better-specials would be the greatest difference. Also the ability to used ranged weapons and handle traps vs blocking.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Khelben » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:35 pm

LaughingCoyote wrote:
What bollocks it doesn't prove anything. If human dual/priests were so uber, why wouldn't everyone who competed in the PD ladders bother with any other race/combination? You're still competing with all the others who are trying to level ASAP at the start of the month, so of course it matters.


From what I've noticed (this isn't looking at previous scoreboard stats and making a spreadsheet and some nice piecharts), the way to win the PD ladder is to show that you're absolutely serious about winning that particular month (by playing alot the first few days) and persuading your few serious adversaries that you're very serious about winning that month. Yes, it may take X hours longer and you might seem like an easier target to overtake playing class-Y/race-Z but given the low amount of serious participants each month; I wouldn't use it for comparison in this case.

Anyway, I forgot what you tried to prove by using the PD ladder as an example, I've had too much wine, Australian ironically; Lindemans Cawarra shiz cab.

LaughingCoyote wrote:Also, letting all races dual-wield would essentially eliminate the main difference between fighters and rogues. Great idea!


See other peoples' replies, they make a good point... and anyway, half-trolls have been around for a while to "eliminate the main difference between fighters and rogues".

PS You seem a bit angry.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:25 pm

these are my feelings in a nutshell:

dual classes:
- I don't want to scrap dual classing, that would be too drastic
- however dual classing with priest is overpowered, as proven by its popularity
- pure priest absolutely does not need nerfing, if anything I feel it's a little dull - flam grav uses too much mana, amt an vamt are boring, etc
- it's almost as if vm and vum should be accessible to 100 and 100/25 priests only. Eg VM and VUM may either begin to fail after class cap >125, or VM could be a heal over time spell and the rate at which you heal is invers-proportional to how far over 125% you are

trolls & races in general
- I'm not convinced they are that good really, but I think the other classes need propping up. Maybe a shadowkin needs +50% ranged/ss and +100dex for example. Or maybe they need a unique property (akin to dual wield, fast walking in heavy armour). I think also if VM/VUM is restricted and melee mobs start using specials, defense may become popular, which may make orcs popular.

ua:
- making UA classless was a mistake. It should be fighter class or a new class 'monk' so until I get around to making monks, UA wll probably stay unclassed. However I might make the monk school of magic a priority.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby TheOneGuy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:50 pm

eggmceye wrote:class breakup of lvl 50+ on reg

cyan is fighter mages : total 2

raw counts:
[Fighter:100::Mage:61::] => 2

so i have a fighter mage thats 61% mage but hes a joke tell at least 150 i would like to see fighter mage get a buff but anyway who is the other fighter mage? (Kiarii is my fighter /mage)
all i want is a test server for maped then ill be happy ...
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:55 pm

mild dual classed priest nerf option as suggested by rusty:

- make priest spells require blessed mace equipped to gain the current cooloff, in a similar fashion that mages req a staff, otherwise there is an additional cooloff penalty
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Severian » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:02 pm

eggmceye wrote:these are my feelings in a nutshell:

dual classes:
- I don't want to scrap dual classing, that would be too drastic
- however dual classing with priest is overpowered, as proven by its popularity
- pure priest absolutely does not need nerfing, if anything I feel it's a little dull - flam grav uses too much mana, amt an vamt are boring, etc
- it's almost as if vm and vum should be accessible to 100 and 100/25 priests only. Eg VM and VUM may either begin to fail after class cap >125, or VM could be a heal over time spell and the rate at which you heal is invers-proportional to how far over 125% you are

trolls & races in general
- I'm not convinced they are that good really, but I think the other classes need propping up. Maybe a shadowkin needs +50% ranged/ss and +100dex for example. Or maybe they need a unique property (akin to dual wield, fast walking in heavy armour). I think also if VM/VUM is restricted and melee mobs start using specials, defense may become popular, which may make orcs popular.

ua:
- making UA classless was a mistake. It should be fighter class or a new class 'monk' so until I get around to making monks, UA wll probably stay unclassed. However I might make the monk school of magic a priority.


Just some thoughts:
- Dual-class priests aren't popular because they are overpowered, its just that priest is pretty much the only class that doesn't require diversification of stats (i.e., no need to spread level gains over 2 or even all 3 stats).
- Fighters are even more boring than priests (sure they can use more specials now, but the rate at which they can use them is pretty much the same - even if a runed weapon is used). For non-pvping purposes, there isn't much point in choosing fighter over priest (its flurry + cleave vs all the priest spells ... hmm).
- AMT and VAMT don't work properly I think; they seem pretty useless (monsters hit can still heal, etc).
- Flame strike is a very inefficient spell; whacking a monster with a base +0 blessed mace would probably yield better results.
- Without VM/VUM, I'm not sure how many players would bother to dual-class.

eggmceye wrote:mild dual classed priest nerf option as suggested by rusty:
- make priest spells require blessed mace equipped to gain the current cooloff, in a similar fashion that mages req a staff, otherwise there is an additional cooloff penalty


- This would be mild depending on how long an additional cooloff.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:42 pm

that's a good point about priests' not req stat diversification but boy am I sick of you going on abt how 'boring' fighters are

anyway - these changes aren't live but they are coded and tested, but req a patch so it will be probably friday my time

* u/a weps are now 2h (makes it less likely to dw a troll priest)
* vum hp bonus capped at +150 (same as GHS)
* um hp bonus capped at +100 (same as RHS)
* vas mani cool off increases with class points over 125%, to the tune of approx +1 sec per 10% over 125%, when a blessed mace is not equipped in the main hand. A 200% class (w/o blessed mace) suffers 15s vas mani cool off. Otherwise, cooloff remains at 7 sec.
* Vas Mani cooloff is visible as a buff - this is so you know when you can cast it again since the cooloff is variable
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:50 pm

actually LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON the only reason you find fighters boring because you're grinding yr ass off 16 hrs a day :2cool:
you think euo combat is boring, you should try WoW
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Bugbo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:56 pm

eggmceye wrote:mild dual classed priest nerf option as suggested by rusty:

- make priest spells require blessed mace equipped to gain the current cooloff, in a similar fashion that mages req a staff, otherwise there is an additional cooloff penalty


So is the casting time for priest with a blessed mace about the same as a mage with staff? That seams fair. Also agree with the others about allowing other races to use versatility to raise their cap.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Severian » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:17 pm

eggmceye wrote:that's a good point about priests' not req stat diversification but boy am I sick of you going on abt how 'boring' fighters are

actually LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON the only reason you find fighters boring because you're grinding yr ass off 16 hrs a day :2cool:
you think euo combat is boring, you should try WoW


LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON ... maybe ... till yesterday i didn't touch euo for about a week though. and i only bring it up when someone says another class is boring ... XD

eggmceye wrote:anyway - these changes aren't live but they are coded and tested, but req a patch so it will be probably friday my time

* u/a weps are now 2h (makes it less likely to dw a troll priest)
* vum hp bonus capped at +150 (same as GHS)
* um hp bonus capped at +100 (same as RHS)
* vas mani cool off increases with class points over 125%, to the tune of approx +1 sec per 10% over 125%, when a blessed mace is not equipped in the main hand. A 200% class (w/o blessed mace) suffers 15s vas mani cool off. Otherwise, cooloff remains at 7 sec.
* Vas Mani cooloff is visible as a buff - this is so you know when you can cast it again since the cooloff is variable


Is the added cooldown based on extra class skill % rounded up or down? For example, I'm at 191%, so will my cooldown time for VM be 7+floor((91-25)/10)=13secs or ceil((91-25)/10)=14secs?

Regardless, it does seem strange that a higher % in peity will cause a longer cooldown for VM ... I recommend making VM a circle 8 and VUM a circle 6, and adding a static cooldown penalty (+7secs or an additional 100% of the existing cooldown).
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:29 pm

Severian wrote:Regardless, it does seem strange that a higher % in peity will cause a longer cooldown for VM


Well actually if you keep your cap under 125 it doesn't matter what piety you have - I kinda feel you are mincing words and putting a spin on it here - this change is clearly targeted at dual class human priests

What I might do actually is move Vm back to circle 7 where it belongs, and put XVM in 6 (ie swapping them) - but that hurts pure priests which I'm not interested in doing.

I'm at 191%, so will my cooldown time for VM be 7+floor((91-25)/10)=13secs or ceil((91-25)/10)=14secs?


its:
floor((classCap-125)*8/75+7), (min is 7)
so yr lookin at 14.04 (ie 14) sec - it's 15 sec flat for 200% cap, hence the 8/75 instead of 1/10
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby eggmceye » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:30 pm

any way it's still on my agenda to make all melee fighting more interesting, not just fighters, but that is another topic
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Severian » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:13 pm

eggmceye wrote:
Severian wrote:Regardless, it does seem strange that a higher % in peity will cause a longer cooldown for VM


Well actually if you keep your cap under 125 it doesn't matter what piety you have - I kinda feel you are mincing words and putting a spin on it here - this change is clearly targeted at dual class human priests

What I might do actually is move Vm back to circle 7 where it belongs, and put XVM in 6 (ie swapping them) - but that hurts pure priests which I'm not interested in doing.


EDIT: oops ... didn't read the last bit from your reply ... integrating it below with this edit ...

Not my intention to mince words ...

But consider this example:

Proposed cooldown for VM: its: floor((classCap-125)*8/75+7)
Player A is a 100% priest (i.e., 100% piety) and 100% mage. His/Her VM cooldown is 15secs.
Player B is a 81% priest (i.e., 81% piety) and 100% mage. His/Her VM cooldown is 12secs.
Player C is a 100% priest (i.e., 100% piety) and 81% rogue. His/Her VM cooldown is 12secs.

This doesn't seem right to me, having a higher % in piety in the above example results in a longer cooldown.

You could instead use: floor((classCap-Piety-25)*8/75+7) or floor(max(0,classCap-Piety-25)*8/75+7) ... the latter does not require a race check ...

This would wield:
Player A - 15sec
Player B - 15sec
Player C - 12sec

This feels more appropriate to me since C doesn't have as much extra non-priest class skills as A or B.
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Severian » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:57 am

I've edited the post above - missed the last bit of one of your posts with the formula used ...

eggmceye wrote:any way it's still on my agenda to make all melee fighting more interesting, not just fighters, but that is another topic


woot! :3
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Evanthia » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:31 am

So mage melee is gonna be more than 'hit it with a stick! Hit it with the stick some more!'?
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Re: shitfight - removing versatility & dual classing with priest

Postby Broden » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:17 am

eggmceye wrote:mild dual classed priest nerf option as suggested by rusty:

- make priest spells require blessed mace equipped to gain the current cooloff, in a similar fashion that mages req a staff, otherwise there is an additional cooloff penalty


Please make separate cooloff counters for priest spells and for mage spells. Other wise, both mages and priests who dabble in the other's affairs will be hosed with increased cooloff.
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