Mage discussion.

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Mage discussion.

Postby Khelben » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:39 am

Right, let's discuss mages.

In my humble opinion mages are way overpowered at the moment. The speed at which they kill monsters is insane compared to the fighter class (sorry, haven't played rogue). One problem with mages is the curve at which their damage scale with only having to spend points in one stat. That one stat not only gives them more damage but it also increases magic resistance making them able to tank damage from spells better than any class. Combine the above with the VM and VUM and you need not spend many points in str or dex.

It is ridiculous that fighters have to further gimp their low damage output by putting points in int to raise their MR in order to fight dragons without dying constantly, not to mention having to be fully equipped with MR-gear. One could argue that fighters should stick to killing melee-only monster but that's no fun, especially when mages of the same level can kill them faster. This was tested on NG in DV killing merchants, fighter with BR clay XJ, stats: 210+100, 265+40, 25 and mage with untinted crook +6, stats 50,25,425+84. I could have gotten even more damage out of the mage by trimming unneeded str down to 25 and being bothered to replace the MR and vig-gear I had equipped.

Let's discuss changes.

- drastically lower the benefit from int on spelldamage
- drastically increase the benefit from str and dex on melee-damage
- reduce the amount of MR gained from int
- increase the amount of MR gained from str and dex
- reduce VOG-"jumps" to 3

- do a complete fighter and rogue revamp (auto-attack ie no more ctrl+dir, aoe-damage skills, stun skills, charge skill, stances etc. but more of those ideas later)

Badly written and composed morning-thread which I apologize for but let's try to get a discussion started.

EDIT for Q&A

Q: Why do you hate mages?
A: I don't hate mages, mages are just overpowered in PVE.

Q: Why do you think mages are overpowered, I don't think mages are overpowered.
A: Do some testing, they gain exp way faster than the other classes. With a mage you only need to press your hotkey for VOG once and you'll dish out ~500 damage at level 250 while being comfortably away from the monsters taking 2-5 damage from dragons bar the most powerful ones.

Q: Why don't you go write the code and email it to egg. All your really doing is increasing his work load.
A: I can't code, I do have email though.
Last edited by Khelben on Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Zzapp » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:19 am

Why must you complain? You have a mage yourself what the big deal? yes fighters dont get as much as MR as mages but thats why there is MR gear.Mages barely wear MR gear due to them having MR from int levels. And im sure fighters have more str than a mage. Str=HP. Mages usually get about 100 str to carry around gear adn drops then bank it afterwards. When you are a fighter You massive amount of HP and load. Ok lets say mages do need a minor damage buff, but you want to make it where mages cant play? Making them where Their best place is minoatur hall? Yes mages may need a damage buff but not as big as your saying.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Khelben » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:43 am

Zzapp wrote:Why must you complain? You have a mage yourself what the big deal?


The classes aren't balanced.

Zzapp wrote:yes fighters dont get as much as MR as mages but thats why there is MR gear. Mages barely wear MR gear due to them having MR from int levels.


Why should fighters/rogues have to be the class that has to switch most of their gear for MR gear, plus, spend level up after level up putting points into int which yields them nothing else but an MR increase while mages get more MR, more damage (which is hugely out of proportion compared to the minimal increase that fighters/rogues get from having to spend points in 2 (two) different stats) and more mana from that single stat.

Zzapp wrote:And im sure fighters have more str than a mage. Str=HP. Mages usually get about 100 str to carry around gear adn drops then bank it afterwards. When you are a fighter You massive amount of HP and load.


My PD and NG mages can easily manage with 50 str. I can carry all the items I need and with VUM and an orb of health I have enough HP to tank whatever monsters I decide to hunt.

Zzapp wrote:Ok lets say mages do need a minor damage buff, but you want to make it where mages cant play? Making them where Their best place is minoatur hall? Yes mages may need a damage buff but not as big as your saying.


By buff you mean nerf. I don't think mages should be bound to hunting in Minotaur Halls nor to make mage the "unplayable" class that the other two classes are at the moment.

Why do you think fighters should have that much lower damage output and take them that much longer to clear dungeon-X compared to a mage? Why do you think it is ok that mages get away having to only spend points in int while fighters need to spend points in all 3 stats and also substitute damage-gear for MR-gear to be able to hunt where the exp-gain is the highest?

EDIT As for those who are thinking about complaining that mages are underpowered in PVP; I don't know nor do I care how the classes are balanced in PVP. There is nothing to be gained through PVP, so whether or not rock beats scissors in PVP, it is not of any importance.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Rufio » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:44 am

Zzapp wrote:Why must you complain? You have a mage yourself what the big deal? yes fighters dont get as much as MR as mages but thats why there is MR gear.Mages barely wear MR gear due to them having MR from int levels. And im sure fighters have more str than a mage. Str=HP. Mages usually get about 100 str to carry around gear adn drops then bank it afterwards. When you are a fighter You massive amount of HP and load. Ok lets say mages do need a minor damage buff, but you want to make it where mages cant play? Making them where Their best place is minoatur hall? Yes mages may need a damage buff but not as big as your saying.

I would kind of have to agree with Zzapp. Its already been brought up many times and nothing has changed but the pvp system, I love how mages are now but thats just my opinion. :-|
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Khelben » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:01 am

Rufio wrote:I would kind of have to agree with Zzapp. Its already been brought up many times and nothing has changed but the pvp system, I love how mages are now but thats just my opinion. :-|


...but would you say that the classes are unbalanced or not in terms of how fast they gain exp.

As I said, I just did a quick test on NG with a mage and a fighter and the mage cleared the DV bartertown much faster while I didn't even bother trying to take on any dragons with my fighter seeing as I am pretty sure my mage can clear ie KTOS 4 times faster than the fighter.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Raiden » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:50 am

Khelben wrote:Right, let's discuss mages.

In my humble opinion mages are way overpowered at the moment......Blah Blah


Well first off: bringing this up again is incredibly infuriating to me, and points out your lack of playing knowledge. While you are a good person with whom I've gotten along with, you effectively have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Your cumulative playing experience on all servers is as follows: a level 80 mage on reg, a 244 drac mage on pd, and a 215 half troll on pd (both remorted with priest sub-class). Don't even start me on NG.. This in essence is no basis to make claims of the grandeur sorcery. Your experience in all classes is extremely minimal.

Fighters and Rogues don't need to sacrifice damage for intelligence, all they need to do is equip magic resistance up to 900 and they can kill every dragon type (minus blood and shadow) and only take 2-5 damage per hit. You think fighters and rogues are underpowered? Have you seen Sandfire dish out 80+ dmg per hit with his rondels? Have you seen Akioka do 140+ per hit with a claymore? Your lack of playing knowledge to gain experience as quickly as a mage is a personal problem, not a game wide fault. Sandfire when grinding a specific loop can level just as fast me, and I could say the same for Akioka.

Also mages were recently nerfed and had piety taken from them, and to regain VM and access VUM; one must sacrifice 38 levels at versatility. Those 38 levels are effectively half of your entire EUO experience. Fighters and many rogues have made this decision and have gained the ability to use piety. Also you negate the fact you have to select a race, and any non-human mage cannot have access to any healing spells.

I could make a laundry list to complain about things I cannot do, and whine about as a mage. So stop beating an argument to death that has no basis anymore. The bottom line is, you are attacking mages when Magic Resistance is what could be tweaked.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Khelben » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:31 am

Hello Raiden, glad you joined the discussion but I am sorry I upset you. I will however try to defend my points even though I have limited playing experience compared to yours.

Raiden wrote:Well first off: bringing this up again is incredibly infuriating to me, and points out your lack of playing knowledge. While you are a good person with whom I've gotten along with, you effectively have no fucking idea what you are talking about.


I admit that I haven't spent as much time on this game as you have but I still know what class is faster at gaining exp on the current level where I am at.

Raiden wrote:Your cumulative playing experience on all servers is as follows: a level 80 mage on reg, a 244 drac mage on pd, and a 215 half troll on pd (both remorted with priest sub-class). Don't even start me on NG.. This in essence is no basis to make claims of the grandeur sorcery. Your experience in all classes is extremely minimal.


Read above.

Raiden wrote:Fighters and Rogues don't need to sacrifice damage for intelligence, all they need to do is equip magic resistance up to 900 and they can kill every dragon type (minus blood and shadow) and only take 2-5 damage per hit.


How is replacing str and dex gear for MR-gear not sacrificing damage? Given, I don't know exactly how many pieces of equipment and/or how much int you need to reach 900 MR but as a fighter/rogue you do sacrifice something while mages don't.

Also, wouldn't you say mages reach the point of 900 MR comparatively faster than fighters, making it easier for them to start grinding dragons earlier?

Raiden wrote:You think fighters and rogues are underpowered? Have you seen Sandfire dish out 80+ dmg per hit with his rondels? Have you seen Akioka do 140+ per hit with a claymore? Your lack of playing knowledge to gain experience as quickly as a mage is a personal problem, not a game wide fault. Sandfire when grinding a specific loop can level just as fast me, and I could say the same for Akioka.


Right, I haven't seen akioka nor Sandfire in action. They are at quite a high level but I bet you it is faster for a mage than any other class to reach them. As for whatever how much damage they do per hit, I reckon a mage at the same level can out-DPS them at range. How much damage do you do with a single XC hit or a VOG between 2 mobs, or IJO, for that matter?

And as for my personal problem with the lack of playing knowledge to gain experience as quickly as a mage, I really don't know what I am doing wrong, maybe there are more tricks to fighters than walking up to them and start hitting them, waiting to release the white bar into a flurry.

Raiden wrote:Also mages were recently nerfed and had piety taken from them, and to regain VM and access VUM; one must sacrifice 38 levels at versatility. Those 38 levels are effectively half of your entire EUO experience. Fighters and many rogues have made this decision and have gained the ability to use piety. Also you negate the fact you have to select a race, and any non-human mage cannot have access to any healing spells.


Things are different on reg, I admit. Still, mages get a damage+HP-draining attack (XC), which is also one of the strongest spells in the game. There are also yellow potions available and VUM-type scrolls.

Again, I am basing my arguments mostly on the mechanics of PD where everyone and his mother chooses piety/divinity as the other 75% thus gaining access to VUM/VM.

Raiden wrote:I could make a laundry list to complain about things I cannot do, and whine about as a mage. So stop beating an argument to death that has no basis anymore.


Please do, but in a separate thread if you don't mind. Maybe I'll get some more insight into the game without having to play some extra months and become less of a "fucking noob".

If you really want to avoid these threads, compile a "PVE: mages vs melee"-thread proving fighters/rogues and mages can gain levels equally fast across the board and make egg sticky it, reply to this thread to help players like me and others who either play fighters/rogues or think they are unbalanced.

Oh, I also think that any gear still in game that is unattainable at the moment should be lowered to the currently attainable maximum for balancing purposes, but this can be discussed in a separate thread.

EDIT changes&additions
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Keighn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:03 am

I can agree with quite a bit of what Khelben is saying. I wouldn't nerf mages any but I do agree that aoes and buffs for fighters and rogues would be much appreciated. Ranged weapons for fighters would be nice. Ranged weapons should have different ranges IMHO. I think auto attack would be more beneficial as a special feature for all classes via a command that you can turn on/off rather than just fighters.

The big debate is the MR defense debate. I think if you could group hotkey a compete set of gear like we have for readying or using items that would solve some of the load here. Another might be revamping the MR on armour types.

Non
Light
Medium
Heavy

Currently I think only Heavy gives some MR benefit.
Make Blackrobe/dark hide/darkweave give MR (which according to old ultma lore was near impervious to magic - I'd say just give a bonus)

It is an age old euo power struggle amonst the classes now amplified by priests and races and the new MR system.

edit -- gah you guys seem to have resolved this issue without my input.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby LaughingCoyote » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:45 am

Compare.

Level 27 fighter with all strength. 180 strength, 20 dex and int.

Wears full + 10 strength. 180+80 str.
Wears full +3 heavy MR gear and +3 rings/necklaces + shield. +640 MR in total.

Level 27 mage with all int. 180 int, 20 dex and 20 strength.

Wears full + 10 int. 180+80 int. Total MR would be... ~240?
Wears full +3 UA MR gear. 180+480 MR. 660 MR in total. (doens't get heavy mr bonus or a shield).

Both can resist drakes/whites/blues with full MR. However the mage would be annoying to play, no vig, barely any health.

At high levels, MR from Intelligence plays a much greater role, but it's still not that hard for a lvl 100+ fighter or rogue to get 900 MR in total to resist most dragons.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Bugbo » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:37 pm

Well if you just returned MR to the way it worked before that would go a get distance to nerfing mages. Currently I love the way it is now, but always feared it was too good to last. Personally though I would rather see a boost to fighter and rogues though. Currently I am plying a mage/rogue on PD, I use the rogue skills for sneaking and light armour as well as disarming traps.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Heikki » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:33 pm

Sad that this topic comes too late.
Many mage players have allready cheesed high lvls with high MR + continously VOG.

Mages with high MR gets low damage from dragons and can continously VOG dragons = about 5 faste xp gain than other classes.

New MR rules broke class balance.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Khelben » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:26 pm

Bugbo wrote:Well if you just returned MR to the way it worked before that would go a get distance to nerfing mages. Currently I love the way it is now, but always feared it was too good to last. Personally though I would rather see a boost to fighter and rogues though. Currently I am plying a mage/rogue on PD, I use the rogue skills for sneaking and light armour as well as disarming traps.


Just out of curiosity; why rogue as second class as you can have protection to negate traps + VM +VUM and some other nice skills. You also have SL as a mage and I don't see the need for +def equipment over +int. Sorry, my experience in all classes is extremely minimal.

LaughingCoyote wrote:Compare.

Level 27 fighter with all strength. 180 strength, 20 dex and int.

Wears full + 10 strength. 180+80 str.
Wears full +3 heavy MR gear and +3 rings/necklaces + shield. +640 MR in total.

Level 27 mage with all int. 180 int, 20 dex and 20 strength.

Wears full + 10 int. 180+80 int. Total MR would be... ~240?
Wears full +3 UA MR gear. 180+480 MR. 660 MR in total. (doens't get heavy mr bonus or a shield).

Both can resist drakes/whites/blues with full MR. However the mage would be annoying to play, no vig, barely any health.


Now, for the next few levels, watch the mage pump points into int, gradually substituting his MR gear to gain even more int=mana=MR=damage (or some vig-gear) while the fighter can either a) start putting points into int for to keep up the MR and be able to get into defense- or damage-gear, or, b) continue wearing the same MR for the next dozen of levels while putting stats into str/dex for more damage. Mage sacrifices nothing, gains everything. Fighter sacrifices stats either way, plus they kill stuff slower. But anyway, the issue becomes more apparent at higher levels, not around the 50s.

LaughingCoyote wrote:At high levels, MR from Intelligence plays a much greater role, but it's still not that hard for a lvl 100+ fighter or rogue to get 900 MR in total to resist most dragons.

Not hard for a level 100+ fighter or rogue to get 900 MR through some sacrifice no. Fact still remains, mages can get 900 MR more easily and get level 100+n faster. Take a look at the reg scoreboard, is it just me or did Raiden gain quite a lot of levels the past 24 hours, like 30 or something? That takes some heavy hitting VOGs.

I don't know, even given my "no fucking idea what you are talking about" I still think I will continue "beating an argument to death" because I think it has some basis.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Khelben » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:42 pm

Heikki wrote:Sad that this topic comes too late.
Many mage players have allready cheesed high lvls with high MR + continously VOG.

Mages with high MR gets low damage from dragons and can continously VOG dragons = about 5 faste xp gain than other classes.

New MR rules broke class balance.


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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby wishIwasDM » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:05 pm

Yeah...I didn't read any of the shit up there. Stats are 100/100/pure int, had to always fend for life but do good offensive now...nothing hurts me! On top of that, VUM doubles my hp(wonder what people with more strength get?) and anything magical hits me for 3s, without mr gear. Best monsters in game are spell casters...it's almost a cheese--they have no chance! Nothing needs to be removed, just a little redux imo. Anyways, good luck with the argument
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Jaral » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:13 pm

I agree that with new MR mages are overpowered. Their damage output is exceptionally high relative to their survivability.

I suggest that damage resistance from MR (and DEF.. why not) be capped at 70-80%.

I also like the suggestion that VOG (the main source of overpowered DPS) be reduced to 3-4 bounces.. or how about random, 2-5 bounces?

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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby LaughingCoyote » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:10 am

Reducing VOG jumps wont help, it will just force mages to use IFH instead. Then people will complain about IFH being over powered and...

As for magic resistance, before the new magic res, fighters could pump def and solo Shadow Warriors without being hurt (and still can) so a similar situation with fighters as it is now with mages. Completely nerfing MR would return to the previous situation, with fighters advantaged, or everyone just wore UA gear to increase DPS.

Suggestions (some of this relates to the party thread):

How about having a spread out mix of damage types dealt by monsters?

Type One: Ignores both MR and Def (like IVPY and XC)
Just requires players to tough it out. Could do with more spells/attacks that were like this.

Type Two: Ignores MR and is resisted by Def (only melee attacks)
High Def characters (mostly fighters, fewer rogues) love this, however range of high end mobs are limited to some golems, Shadow Warriors and Blood warriors. The last requires a LOT of def, most players can't get this so it's only really SWs that are decent for tanks. Give higher end monsters a rare "special" that can cut through fighter def, and have more spells be resisted by Defense, would encourage fighters to hunt different mobs instead of just tanking a room full of SWs.

Type Three: Ignores Def and is resisted by MR (like most spells)
High MR characters love this, and as the predominant damage done by higher end mobs are spells, high MR characters are advantaged. Either having more spells be MR immune or having stronger melee/ranged attacks would encourage different coping strategies, like higher def, larger parties, etc.

ATM:
Type One: XC, IVPY
Type Two: Melee attacks
Type Three: VAM, GP, VF, OG, VOG, XMP, AEP, XJ, IFH, IZH, INH, everything else...

Instead:
Type One: XC, IVPY, VF, IFH, IZH?
Type Two: Melee attacks, GP, OG?
Type Three: VOG, XMP, XJ, AEP, INH?


Have more monsters do things like blind you, cause hallucinations, cause drunkeness, teleport you several steps away randomly, decrease str/dex/int, decrease player's attack damage, prevent players from using ranged attacks/spells or melee attacks/spells or make you slower over a longer period of time (instead of AEP, which freezes you for a short period of time)... would also encourage more parties.

Have Protection scroll not be 100% proof - have small chance that it won't protect you from plague, poison, etc.

Have less bunched up monsters of the same type spawn in same location. No rooms full of only dragons, SWs, Golems, Hydras, etc. More mixed up spawning.

Change the way MR and Def work, where once you are over a critical level of Def or MR the damage is almost totally negated. Flatten out the damage curve a bit more.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Bugbo » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:38 am

Khelben wrote:Just out of curiosity; why rogue as second class as you can have protection to negate traps + VM +VUM and some other nice skills. You also have SL as a mage and I don't see the need for +def equipment over +int. Sorry, my experience in all classes is extremely minimal.


If you try to pick up something while invisible it would reveal you, hence I chose the rogue for hide skill. Also protection scrolls don't work against general damage traps. Unless it's been changed.
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Dalzedur » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:50 am

Thought I'd point out something obvious related to your discussion.

As far as I know:

Not every mage has access to VOG. While most (all?) old players have bought it from the shops when it was still being sold, new ones don't have that benefit. They can hope to find it themselves (I'd say finding it solo as a mage is hard, if one doesn't already have access to the powerful spells (like XC and VOG)), or possibly buy/trade one from those who have an extra one lying around - and given its value to mages, the price wouldn't be cheap.

And like with most things, there are those who know what they're doing, and those who don't, therefore it comes as no wonder that some have a more difficult time than the rest. But do they have more fun, I wonder...
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Rufio » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:14 am

Raiden wrote:
Khelben wrote:Right, let's discuss mages.

In my humble opinion mages are way overpowered at the moment......Blah Blah


Well first off: bringing this up again is incredibly infuriating to me, and points out your lack of playing knowledge. While you are a good person with whom I've gotten along with, you effectively have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Your cumulative playing experience on all servers is as follows: a level 80 mage on reg, a 244 drac mage on pd, and a 215 half troll on pd (both remorted with priest sub-class). Don't even start me on NG.. This in essence is no basis to make claims of the grandeur sorcery. Your experience in all classes is extremely minimal.

Fighters and Rogues don't need to sacrifice damage for intelligence, all they need to do is equip magic resistance up to 900 and they can kill every dragon type (minus blood and shadow) and only take 2-5 damage per hit. You think fighters and rogues are underpowered? Have you seen Sandfire dish out 80+ dmg per hit with his rondels? Have you seen Akioka do 140+ per hit with a claymore? Your lack of playing knowledge to gain experience as quickly as a mage is a personal problem, not a game wide fault. Sandfire when grinding a specific loop can level just as fast me, and I could say the same for Akioka.

Also mages were recently nerfed and had piety taken from them, and to regain VM and access VUM; one must sacrifice 38 levels at versatility. Those 38 levels are effectively half of your entire EUO experience. Fighters and many rogues have made this decision and have gained the ability to use piety. Also you negate the fact you have to select a race, and any non-human mage cannot have access to any healing spells.

I could make a laundry list to complain about things I cannot do, and whine about as a mage. So stop beating an argument to death that has no basis anymore. The bottom line is, you are attacking mages when Magic Resistance is what could be tweaked.

Still agree with Raiden, they are perfect how they are now. Only thing that needs tweaked is MR. :mad:
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Re: Mage discussion.

Postby Khelben » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:01 am

Here's an idea on how to measure which class can level the fastest; LotL all 3 classes to say level 250.
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