Party XP Discussion

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Party XP Discussion

Postby Jaral » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:48 pm

I'm posting this as a separate thread from the Ideas thread because I suspect there may be enough interest to make its own topic. All constructive criticism is appreciated, flamers and naysayers can go eat dirt. Unless of course Egg decides to shoot the idea down, in which case discussion is pretty much over, isn't it? :mrgreen:

In most games, there is some sort of bonus to xp for killing things in a group. This idea has some nice effects:
- Increased incentive to actually be social, instead of just grinding away solo. For all its community, we are actually very light on the social aspects of gaming. If EUO is going to grow it probably will need a little more social appeal at some point.
- Party based class abilities become more useful, because partying is more useful.
- Slower classes will find it a bit easier to level, since they can join with faster classes in a party without bogging everyone's xp gains down too much.

It helps a couple downsides of the current setup:
- There is hardly any situation where it is to a mage's advantage to party with anyone other than another mage. :sad: Even partying with another mage is usually slower than solo. :very sad: Partying with a warrior or priest can be almost as slow as powerleveling a newbie. :knife: Don't get me wrong, the tanking ability of tougher classes allows you to fight with harder NPCs, but because you are now splitting that xp up 50/50 you end up getting less xp than you would by killing small, easy things more quickly. I think any party with similar level members should do at least a little better than those same members going solo.
- Really only 2-3 people can share most areas currently before the xp gains are meaninglessly slow. With a small party bonus that could be raised significantly, although lag could still make that difficult...

It also can have some downsides if you overdo it...
- Too much party xp bonus means solo grinding becomes pointlessly slow by comparison. Solo is fun and should stay that way.
- Too much bonus could also lead to a situation where party members who are not contributing to the combat are still making everyone faster, or people are invited just to speed up everyone else's xp.
- Too much could also encourage powerleveling, since there will be less xp loss for the higher level player involved. Powerleveling is lame.



My current idea for how to implement it would be something like this:
For each party member in the fight, add maybe 25% to the xp.
Code: Select all
PartyXP = NPCxp * (0.75 + (numberofplayers * 0.25))

Then split that among party members. IE, 1 person = 100%, 2 = 125%, 3 = 150%, etc. If it was more than 30-40% boost it would probably be silly and make people feel they have to be in a group to get "decent xp." Less than maybe 10-15% and you wont really notice the difference. Obviously no bonus should be given for people that would not be receiving xp (too low level, not in the area, etc etc). To discourage ridiculously large parties, it could be capped at say 4-5 players. Or maybe ridiculously large parties are good?

While I am mentioning party xp, I think I should note that (at least on PD) the current anti-powerleveling restriction isn't helping much. Having lvl50s begging to be powerleveled to lvl75 by players several hundreds of levels over them lame. I propose that instead of using over lvl 50/under lvl 50, we try something like "only members at least 50% of the level of the highest participating member get xp."
Examples:
3 players, lvls 75, 100 and 200: The lvl 75 doesnt get xp (or contribute to party xp bonus).
4 players, lvls 45, 50, 80 and 110, but 110 is sitting at the bank: 0 xp for 110 of course, but the other three get xp (because 45 > 80*0.5) and contribute to a 3-member party bonus of %150.
5 players, lvls 35, 45, 55, 65 and 70: All get xp, 5 member party bonus! However 200% divided among 5 players is still only 40% xp per player per kill.
3 players, lvls 700, 450 and 51: Screw you lvl 51! 2 member party bonus..., 125% xp = 65.2% each.

Maybe I have the exact % bonus off, but what do you all think of the idea?
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Keighn » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:20 am

In the old Phantasie game when a party was formed and went into town to get xp/gold there was an option to give out "SHARES." Oddly you could give someone 0 - 9 shares (maybe more its been a while) to one of each of the 8 party members. The idea was so you could give some members more and others less.

A complicated party method would be a "Form the Party" stage in which you use a /form command first. The person who FORMS the party decides who is going to go into the group. Only HE/SHE can invite members in the formation stage.

After members are selected and everyone agrees on who should get the most shares out of 0-9 the FORMER types /membername share 0-9 (with the number determining the share). Each member is default set at 1 share, so if there is 4 party members each gets 25% of the xp of the kill.

Now the xp that monsters give is going to be based on the number of people in the party:
1 person = 100% normal xp of mob
2 people = 105% normal xp of mob
3 people = 110% normal xp of mob
Basically +5% boost of xp per person in party.

So say you have a an 11 person party which = 150% of mob xp. ie. say MAT DAEMON is worth 1000xp normally, then a kill in this party would be 1500 xp for wiping the floor with him. Now if each person has only 1 share you'd divide the experience by 11 which really doesn't equal crap for such a large party. Less than 150 xp a party member or per share. Now if say 10 people elected to take 0 shares and the last person 1 share then he'd get all the xp and everyone else would get jack squat. The idea of multiple shares would give other members less xp and a single person more. ie... say 1 person takes 9 shares and the rest one then you'd have 1500 xp divided by 19 shares or about 79 xp per share. Everyone with 1 share gets 79 xp and the dude with 9 shares gets 711 xp.

This way you could let a party member thats weak or more deserving more xp than others. Obviously it could be cheesed like hell by the higher levels levelling lesser level though.

5% bonus per party members is just an example. I don't know what would be more beneficial.

If a party member is kicked (by party leader/starter ONLY -- as I've seen problems with other party members kicking people which is really annoying) or leaves then all default shares go to 1 each.

The /membername share 0-9 has to be retyped for each member again to put your shares back to where you've all agreed.

/disperse completely remeoves everyone from the party (perhaps the best feature of my entire suggestion).

PARTY FORMED!
PARTY DISPERSED!

Ah the good old Ultima III nostalgia.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Grue » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:25 am

So say you have a an 11 person party which = 150% of mob xp. ie. say MAT DAEMON is worth 1000xp normally, then a kill in this party would be 1500 xp for wiping the floor with him. Now if each person has only 1 share you'd divide the experience by 11 which really doesn't equal crap for such a large party. Less than 150 xp a party member or per share. Now if say 10 people elected to take 0 shares and the last person 1 share then he'd get all the xp and everyone else would get jack squat. The idea of multiple shares would give other members less xp and a single person more. ie... say 1 person takes 9 shares and the rest one then you'd have 1500 xp divided by 19 shares or about 79 xp per share. Everyone with 1 share gets 79 xp and the dude with 9 shares gets 711 xp.


Umm . . . just using your example, I'm not sure where I see any true benefit to partying in this situation? Why would want to go into a party just to get less XP than if they had solo'd the moster to begin with? I think the intent behind this thread is to make partying more appealing / beneficial. I think that Jaral's idea has merit, I just don't know enough about how the mechanics work currently to offer any additional thoughts on how they might be improved / modified.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Keighn » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:44 am

I don't know the pure mechanics currently but mine was just an example. Some people would rather there be powerlevelling and others would prefer some sort of even party xp playing field. To me the simplest is the killer gets 100% of the xp kill and the rest of the members that didn't get the kill gets a small percentage; say 10% or 50%(which seems high if you didn't get the kill). I seriously doubt this game calculates how much damage each person does to a mob then distributes xp accordingly.

Old games = total xp divided by party members. Simple as that.
Old Ultima games xp = whomever kills the mob.

I still say these complex formulae = cheesing for the lesser levelled party members.


XP outcome is never going to be incentive enough for parties unless you get more xp. I shouldn't say that, some like to party chat but that's besides the point.

How about a combat or def bonus of +1 per party member ala moral. I'm sure that'd be more than enough incentive even if mob xp was divided amongst the party members evenly.
I know resurrecting has changed so perhaps being raised without res sickness. I always thought of that as a bonus.
Party Spells that will affect all party members.
Spells that might raise your NV, MR, AS, DEF.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Jaral » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:01 am

Egg would have to chip in with info for how exactly xp is divided... I don't think anyone has specifically worked out the exact formula.

From my observation, you may or may not get a LITTLE less xp if you never hit the NPC.. I doubt if it is scaled by damage done, though it doesn't really take much programming to keep track of who did what dmg to a NPC. Egg's skills are certainly past that. Other than that, xp for each kill seems to be divided evenly between each party member in proximity at the time of the kill. I actually suspect that there is no other mechanic than simple splitting evenly between nearby party members

I don't think you really want to scale by damage done, since this means mages get most the xp, and a healer or low-dmg tank gets little or none. Even splitting or level based splitting seems like the way to go.

My idea of how to split would be simple level based splitting, which would seem to offer the best mix of discouraging powerleveling, giving more xp to more powerful party members while not ignoring low-dmg assistance:

Code: Select all
Yourlevel/(SUM of all group member levels) = % of xp earned.
For a party with 3 people, lvl 25 noob, 175 healer, and lvl 300 damage-dealing mage of fury:

(Ignoring any party bonus for the moment)
lvl 25/(25+175+300) = 25/500 = 5% for the noob.
lvl 175/(25+175+300) = 175/500 = 35% for the healer.
lvl 300/(25+175+300) = 300/500 = 60% for the doombringer.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Jaral » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:08 am

Keighn wrote:
Old games = total xp divided by party members. Simple as that.
Old Ultima games xp = whomever kills the mob.

I still say these complex formulae = cheesing for the lesser levelled party members.


Not sure which all old games you are referring to, but most old MULTIPLAYER games (MUDS fill this category almost entirely) have a party xp bonus of some sort. I do like the morale idea though, kinda cool. Also any good formula will include something to discourage powerleveling. It is silly when I go blasting through scores of dragons, balrons, and shadow creatures and the lvl 50 guy beside me who couldn't touch a single one of them gets 50% of the xp.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Keighn » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:29 am

Wizards Crown
Eternal Dagger
All SSI gold box series
Might & Magic Series
Magic Candle Series
Bard's Tales Series
Shard of Spring
Eternal Dagger
Wizardry Series
Baldur's Gate Series
Early Final Fantasy
Dragon Warrior
Swords and Serpents
Wizards and Warriors
Wasteland
Eye of the Beholder series
Dungeon Masters Series
Phantasi Series


Need I go on....

Albeit, these are all played by one person utilizing a party mechanic and not played individually via other people.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Jaral » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:53 pm

Wow that reads like a who's who of RPGs everyone should play :p

Yes, the even-split method seems to be most common for single player games. I think that may be partly because they WANT you to be able to easily raise the level of weaker party members in order to keep the party around the same level. Also having a party was pretty much a necessity for most of the games I have played, though I have to admit I have only played about half of those you listed. No single character would ever get powerful enough to really do much on their own.

By comparison, EUO is more designed around 1player vs NPCs, and the partying mechanic really just facilitates people hunting together. It isn't necessary for anything else (that I am aware of), except maybe /p chat and drops ownership. So the problem with the current system seems to me to be that more powerful players are always 'penalized' for being in a group by getting slower xp. This is fine in a single player game where we care equally for all members of the party, or if you are feeling super magnanimous, but most of us are greedy selfish bastards who only care about our own character... :mrgreen:
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby LaughingCoyote » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:12 pm

eggmceye wrote:1) you can no longer lvl newbies or players of level significantly lower than yours
2) parties get increased xp


Firstly, relative lowbies will get reduced xp if you kill something and you are significantly higher level than they are. If they are 3/4 your level or less, and are at least 10 levels lower, then they will get reduced xp: the lower they are in comparison to you, the lower their xp. If they do the killing however, and you just watch, then they will get the full xp and you will too. So you can still help lowbies level but they will have to do most of the killing.

Secondly, the more people in a party, the more xp everyone will get. Members will get 14% more xp per kill per party member. A party of 7 will earn everyone 2x xp!
---2005

eggmceye wrote:updates tonite:
* shared xp: xp from a kill is now dished out proportionally to how much damage each player inflicted. Same goes for pets. Partying not required to share xp. If player A does 90 dmg to a 100 hp mob and player B does 5 dmg and pet X does 5 dmg then A gets 90% of the xp, B gets 5% of the xp and the pet gets 5% of the xp.
* shared party xp unchanged
* you getting xp from your pets kills scrapped - you now get what you deserve - the exception to this is if your pet is at max level, in which case you get all the xp, which is unchanged
* your pet getting a share of your xp totally scrapped - it gets xp proportionately to how much dmg it did
--- 2008

Thanks for the well thought out posts though, it would be good to have better confirmation of the party xp mechanics out, but this is the state of the game from eggmceye in the forums.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby LaughingCoyote » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:39 pm

Jaral wrote:It helps a couple downsides of the current setup:
- There is hardly any situation where it is to a mage's advantage to party with anyone other than another mage. :sad: Even partying with another mage is usually slower than solo. :very sad: Partying with a warrior or priest can be almost as slow as powerleveling a newbie.


I think it depends on the lvl, class and maps you are in. I have a lvl 180 mage on reg where I still find it useful to have another (similar, or slightly lower lvl) mage along when I'm hunting dragons in CoS. I don't die as much, it is faster with two mages pelting out VOGs, etc.

Hunting with fighters on the other hand is harder, unless you can find a moderately higher lvl fighter to party with you.
The whole fighter = tank, mage = artillery (or whatever metaphor you like) sort of died when realistic AI targetting was bought in, instead of monsters attacking the nearest player (ie the fighter) they attacked the player doing the most damage. Mages got fried initially and fighters go bypassed, but with the new magic resistance that reduced spell damage it meant that mages could tank for themselves and made fighters even more superfluous.

Taunt was meant to fix this, but when LC was a fighter he never used it. Too fiddly, and would rather use the rage for special attacks then to use-dir a taunt to a single monster. Do any fighters use it atm? Could make Taunt much better? AoE instead of targetted ability? Instead of basing it on rage, just have a independent and large cooloff (like 30-60 secs?)

P.S the other way to see it, is that mages are way too uber and magic resistance needs to be fixed somehow, but this would be off topic.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Keighn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:17 am

So currently a party of 7 gets roughly x2 xp per mob? I kinda skipped the second half of your post lc due to that one line saying partying remains unchanged. I wouldn't mind someone posting the final results of xp bonus % just for us lazy mathmaticians. ie.

1 person = 100%
2 people = xxx %
3 people = xxx%
4 people = xxx%
5 people = xxx%
6 people = xxx%
7 people = xxx%
8 people = xxx%
9 people = xxx%
10 people = xxx%
11 people = xxx%
12 people = xxx%
13 people = xxx% and so on.... fill in the blanks. Make it easy so this topic never has to be raised again. Then stick it in the manual.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby LaughingCoyote » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:26 am

It's +14% per person Keighn, not exactly rocket science. X-D
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Keighn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:14 am

That's what i get for not reading everything. If that's so and there's no ceiling I don't see the problem with the current system. Parties aren't limited by size, though the lag is a bitch in such high numbers.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby LaughingCoyote » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:16 am

It's impossible! Especially around DM events. :D
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Jaral » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:17 pm

Thanks, was not aware this idea was already in place. :--;:

I'd still like to see it increased... but meh, whatever.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby wishIwasDM » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:06 am

If anything I'd say xp divided by threat meter, priests XVMing should get hit but xp if living, and randomly casting XC at the nubs
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Current 2017 Partying Properties

Postby Keighn » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:09 am

It took a little digging just to raise this dead thread. Next I have to dig around for the current updates on parties (It can't be that far buried).

I'm a little curious about the full Neapolitan scoop on XP with pets, party members, and summons.

Are mage, priest, monk, necromancer summons giving equal xp to their summoner for the kills they perform?
Is there a percentage to this formula for damage they do and damage you do and who actually gets the kill?
Do party members get any experience for the kills by a summon if the party member is a leecher?
Does the party member get some xp if he actually does some damage and the summon kills it?

What about pets when they are NOT leveled all the way up?
How much does the owner get for a pet killing the mob and how much xp does the pet get?
If the owner kills the mob and the pet isn't maxed how much do each get?
Do party members get any xp for another party members pet killing the mob and what is the rought %?

What if the max is MAXXED up in level?
How much does the owner get for the pet killing the mob?
What about party members and the pet kills the mob; do they get any experience?

Leeches? (people who do NO damage to mobs)
How much xp do the leeches get? Party sizes 2, 3, 4, 5?

Partying any level?
How much does each member get for killing the mob (is it diminished for the one who kills?) Party sizes 2, 3, 4, 5?
What about members that damage but don't get the kill; how much % do they receive? Party sizes 2, 3, 4, 5?

Does it matter what level members are?

Are the shares relatively equal no matte what the level or is there some sweet golden level where xp is divided relatively even?


Combat "No target there xXXXXX" happens a lot in parties. Is there some sort of party lag going on or targeting problems? We really see this with aoe spells but it happens in other instances too. I don't think lag is an issue here.

Gold shares? Are they smiliar to xp shares?

Is everyone happy with current party mechanics?
Should we have larger parties?
Would you like to see Bot/hirelings that fill up party slots possibly that have their own pets?

Just throwing some questions and ideas out solely on parties. Pity there aren't more players who play or read the forums. Bit of a patch we have here....
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby newmagna » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:32 pm

Maybe we could do the opposite: give more xp when going solo(like 10 or 20, diminishes as you level up?) but giving bonuses to the party depending on the classes of who's in it, so if you have a warrior you get a hp/def/PATK bonus depending on his %/skill level and possibly char level, while a mage would get you vig/mr/MATK, and a rogue would give evasion and NV. the only who would not get said bonus would be the one that joins the party and gives said bonus bonus in the first place, only the bonuses from everyone else.
Imagine a party of lvl 1000 warriors running around like that
Also, Pristes would give regen bonus(hp).
Monks would give resistances.
Necros would get one more summon slot for every other player in the party, which would be beneficial for everyone I guess( maybe tweak the summons AI so that it follows the other member instead of the necro, and maybe make it so warriors get mage types, mages get tanks, etc)
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby Rumper » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:08 am

At the moment there is no restriction on party levels as in a lvl 1 can party with a lvl 999 and still get their own share.
Partymechanics now (or what I atleast remember):
5 players in a party max.
Xp gets shared evenly between all players.
Total xp gotten from mob increases the more players there are. | Example for a mob that gives 120 exp.
- 2 players: 4/3 of normal xp or 2/3 each player | 160 exp total or each player 80 exp.
- 3 players: 9/4 of normal xp or 3/4 each player | 270 exp total or each player 90 exp.
- 4 players: 16/5 of normal xp or 4/5 each player | 384 exp total or each player 96 exp.
- 5 players: 5 times normal xp or full exp each player | 600 exp total or each player 120 exp.
Damage and killing blows don't matter.
Max distance is 5 tiles between the player who got the killing blow and the person who leeches. If it exceeds this distance it will be treated as the leecher not counted in the party.
It's the same as only players in a 5 tile radius of the killer get counted towards the party count and thus xp increase. All other partymembers outside this radius get 0.
Example for a 5 player party. A player deals the killing blow on a mob but only 2 other players is within this radius. So the xp distributed will be counted as if it were a 3 person party. But only for the 3 players inside that radius. Everyone else get 0.
Pets if max level don't leech xp.
I don't remember how much pets leech if non-max lvl. But there is a difference if they killed a mob all alone, got a hit in or didn't hit at all.
Also not sure of how much a pet leeches if in a party with other players and non-max lvl pets.
Summons from different classes have different xp ratios.
As a necro, summons will give the player 90% xp of the kill.
As a mage, daemons give the player 50%. (Not sure if it changed) Dragons idk.
As a priest, I don't know.
As a monk, We have summons????
Sometimes damage ratios matter, sometimes they don't. But if they do, then killing blow doesn't matter.
Other player summons give a leecher xp only if leecher hit it. (Not sure)
Other player pets give leecher xp, regardless if leecher hit or didn't hit.
Max level is not equal to exp cap. So rules still apply like all members not max lvl.
In case of exp cap, idk.
About what I know about party lag is that players are kind of divided into 'factions'. Parties consisting of 1 faction get close to no lag. Parties consisting of different factions get lags but it seems like only 1 faction feels the lag. As how players are divided into factions, idk. It's not region bound atleast.
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Re: Party XP Discussion

Postby LaughingCoyote » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:11 pm

Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:04 pm
eggmceye wrote:NEW Increased party xp formula

party with 2 members get 2/3 xp each
party with 3 members get 3/4 xp each
party with 4 members get 4/5 xp each
party with 5 members get full xp each just for watching

example:
say you get 100 xp for killing a vamp by yourself

2 member party would get 66 xp each
3 member party would get 75 xp each
4 member party would get 80 xp each
5 member party would all get 100 xp each just for one vamp that is 400 bonus xp out of thin air - there is really no excuse not to be partying

CAVEAT! party members not near the kill (something like 5 squares only) do not count as being part of the party! so stick close together

reduced xp formula for lowbies
ok here it is exactly:
- this reduction applies to the bonus applied above
- firstly the lvl ratio of the lowbie to the killer is calculated. Eg killer is 100, lowbie is 50, the ratio is 0.5
- if this ratio is <0.65 and the difference in level between the 2 players is>=10 and the lowbie is under lvl 80 (was 50) then the lowbie gains xp*ratio

2 man party example
- so with a lvl 100 killing a vamp, each player gets 66 xp
- the lvl ratio is 0.5 (50/100)
- the lvl diff is 50 (ie >=10) and the lowbie is < 80
- so the lowbie gets 66 * 0.5 = 33 xp for helping kill the vamp

how do avoid xp reduction as a lowbie!!
- get past lvl 80 for a start, then it no longer matters
- otherwise make sure your lvl ratio is > 65. Eg if you are lvl 50, hunt with 50/.65 = lvl 77 or less
- if you are within 10 lvls of the higher player, then you are fine


Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:38 pm
eggmceye wrote:3 june
* xp per person for 5 man is 83% down from 100% (all other party sizes unchanged from yesterday)
* increased party xp radius to 6 (from 5)
Hecate wrote: I feel even more evil than ever, milking cows before killing them.

eggmceye wrote:pretty cool having vigour put in the manual after 14 years X-D
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LaughingCoyote
MACRO > me
 
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