Foils reworked.

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Eidolon
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Foils reworked.

Post by Eidolon » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:29 pm

I think everyone but Mackey agrees foils blow. PvP they're awesome, probably the best second only to Axe's cleave. However, PvM is extremely weak. This is what I want to target in this thread. PvM foils.

Here's some facts.

- At 70% you get parry - great little special to compliment a shield. At 80% you get riposte - nice little addition, not too overpowered but comes in handy. At 90% you get to disarm the PvP opponent for 3 or 5 seconds, I cant remember which.

- PvM disarm really doesnt have a purpose. Supposedly it lowers the AS of the monster (sounds good, but doesnt make any different unforunately) and hits 2x dmg which isnt much at all when you think about how fast foils are hitting.

- Foils does a few dmg less than Shortswords and almost exactly 10 less dmg than Rondels. This is huge. Just a guess but in 5 seconds you hit like 13 or so times thats 130 dmg less than using rondels in just 5 seconds..

So here's what I propose that I think will keep foils from being overpowered, but also make rogues actually want to use something other than shortswords and the occasional ranged while hunting.

- New PvM foil special.
1. At 90% when you "disarm" a monster, have the same effect as Quivering Palm take place. I'm not sure if Quivering Palm makes it so that no matter what you hit you have a chance of getting the critical hits for 3 seconds or whatever it is, but how about something like this for Foils. You could call it something like Adrenaline Rush/Surge - "You feel a surge of adrenaline rush through you!" ..you get the idea.

OR

2. You hit 2x dmg and for the next 3 - 5 seconds, the fencer becomes very aware of his surroundings or whatever fancy way you want to put it, and had VERY high probability to riposte and parry any attacks, even magic ones (Vas Flam, Xen Mani Por, Grav Por, etc) for their full dmg (riposte).

I like both of these special ideas a lot. I think I like the second one more because its more unique to foils instead of a QP knockoff.

- Foil damage.
Foils already has the advantage of piercing (against dragons being of the utmost importance to use) and the damage still isnt even comparable with shortswords. Shortswords also have different damage ranging from daggers to rondels. Daggers are the fastest and rondels are the slowest. Why not do the same thing with foils? Not only boost their entire damage like 5 damage every hit (if you hit 10s now, after all this would go in you'd be hitting 15s with same weapon), but also make kryss and epee's do more damage (never hitting below more than 2-3 damage than that of a sabre or rapier of same +as/dmg) than sabres and rapiers which are at 1.6 speed and 1.5 speed, respestively. So with a sabre/rapier you'd be hitting 13-15s and with a kryss/epee you'd be hitting 17-20s.


I think this would make foils worth it in more than just PvP. This may sound like a lot at once, but if you feel that way, please try testing out the damage and special in PvM. Foils vs Shortswords is embarrassingly horrible.

Comments, please.

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eggmceye
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Post by eggmceye » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:03 pm

ok so fix the dps and replace the pvm special - sounds good, will get on it next week (no internet for me at home on the weekends)

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Eidolon
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Post by Eidolon » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:45 am

Kind of off subject.. but I've always wondered this because it makes no sense to me. Why don't rogues get tactics along with fighters?

At my level mages can take on Shadow Mages no problem at all. My fighter at level 179 can hit shadow mages for full dmg. On Sand I wear my full dex suit (+230), use a purple and wear +8 rondels and still dont hit for full dmg.

Just an example to show the importance of AS. And as far as my calculations go, it would take me like 100 more levels to hit them for full dmg including stat reductions and everything. This kinda leads into the foils problem too - stat reductions killing the 100% stat combat skills.

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Rusty76
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Post by Rusty76 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:22 am

Eidolon wrote:This kinda leads into the foils problem too - stat reductions killing the 100% stat combat skills.
I agree, I've done extensive mathematical analysis (yes, i'm a geek like that :smile: ) of the diminishing gains and it definitely effects the different classes differently. Mace skill, foil skill and magic skills are the most strongly effected. Next is polearms, axes, shortswords and ranged. And finally longswords and unarmed are the least affected. I would be lying if i said that the diminished gains was not a motivation for me to switch Rusty from rogue to fighter again. Why should I train a char in a skill that I know is going to be inferior? I've posted about this before: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3246 I even came up with a way that you could still have diminished gains but it would be fair to all classes. I would love to see this change because the current system is simply not fair.

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