Stat balance

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Postby Catherine » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:44 am

Eidolon wrote:Not really sure how this got turned into a fighter vs mage vs rogue vs everyone thread.

This thread is talking about stat balancing due to stat reductions.



I just pointed out that stat balancing due to reductions hits mages the most ;)
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Postby Eidolon » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:49 pm

I think you completely missed the point of my post.

I was saying how anything other than 50/50 skills (solely UA and longswords skill) gets knocked hard from stat reductions. Not to mention the 100% skills - foils and maces. Then like 1 or 2 sentences after I said that, I said magery skills can also be considered 100% skill.

In other words, right now maces, foils, magery skills get hit the hardest. The reasons are in other post, no need to repost them. I'm suggesting that we fix this..
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Rusty76 » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:13 am

I had said this earlier in this thread but if you diminished the bonus to your damage calculated from your stats instead of diminishing the individual stats you'd fix this problem.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Xero » Tue May 05, 2009 2:01 pm

has this issue been resolved or does the problem still stand?
this thread is a little outdated and there may have been an update. Great research Rusty
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Re: Stat balance

Postby eggmceye » Tue May 05, 2009 2:34 pm

Rusty76 wrote:I had said this earlier in this thread but if you diminished the bonus to your damage calculated from your stats instead of diminishing the individual stats you'd fix this problem.


but doesn't this just assume that diminished stats only exist to address ever-increasing damage dealt?
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Eclips » Tue May 05, 2009 3:28 pm

What about any stats earned after the LVL equivalence of having 700 total stats gets diminished at a rate of 2/3s of the rate it is now.

(I didn't read the whole topic to see if someone suggested this before so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else's ideas.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Xero » Tue May 05, 2009 3:32 pm

I think the way to resolve the issue is change the formula for amount gained from skill derivitives.

The lower the amount of % derived from the stats (UA = 50% dex/str), the less of a gain you get from them. as I understand it you bonus 100% from both str and dex using LS and UA, so, by making them benefit by only half as much for each stat, with 600 into both str and dex would only be as much as a weapon such as foils (100% skill) with 600 dex also.

Lets look at ratios to understand how to adjust the formula.....

50% / 50% weapons = 1:1. true value of stat gains = 200% (does approximatly 2X the damage because of a cap which is twice as high as a single stat item)
- Reduce the returns by 1/2 on both strength and dex
- Simply doubling the AS derivitives on 100% weapons will not fix the issue because trolls dual wielding 2 100% weapons will have a 4X gain rate per point than someone only using one of them, thus, OP half trolls. (if this is what you're going for, then an adjustment needs to made to 75/25 weapons so that they gain 33% AS from stat derivitives.)
75% / 25% weapons - 3:1. True value of stat gains = 150%. (does approximatly 1.5x the damage of a 100% skill weapon) One of the stats gains twice as much benefit as the other until reaching the point of severe diminishing returns, which makes the higher stat obsolete and the lower continue benefitting until reaching the diminishing returns point as well.
- Reduced the AS derivitives on these classes of weapons by 33% (not an absolute value of 33%) so that the true value of the skills only amounts to 100% instead of 150%

100% weapons - these are your base weapons from which to calculate your damage from other types of weapon classes. If they are not strong enough you modify their derivitives and all other weapon classes base their damage from this class of weaponary.

I hope this helps.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Rusty76 » Tue May 05, 2009 11:30 pm

eggmceye wrote:
Rusty76 wrote:I had said this earlier in this thread but if you diminished the bonus to your damage calculated from your stats instead of diminishing the individual stats you'd fix this problem.


but doesn't this just assume that diminished stats only exist to address ever-increasing damage dealt?


Isn't that the purpose of the diminishing gains? To make players gain power slower the higher level they are? My problem isn't in diminishing power at higher level, it's in the fact that the current mechanism for it doesn't have the same effect for all classes. Instead of using the characters individual stats I think you should use a characters level to determine how much their power should be diminished. This would be fair to all classes and also take into account characters that have took levels at the verastility shrine. If you compute a % of stat loss from the characters level and apply the % to all their stats then it would be consistent to all classes.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Eclips » Wed May 06, 2009 3:17 am

I believe what egg was saying was that reduced stats were created to hinder all aspects of high lvl players, not just the damage they deal. He wants diminishing stats to effect HP, load, MR.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Xero » Wed May 06, 2009 5:34 am

Rusty,
while your idea seems sound, think about what you're saying.
How will it effect 100% weapons and mages? how will it effect 100, 50/50, 75/25 weapons? I think if you plug an equation into your spreadsheet which diminishes returns from level, you will see the initial problem still exists because values of stats not equal depending on your choice of weapon. Tell me why someone would choose any other weapon than 100% type weapon if they get a smaller return on their stats for choosing something else? IE. shortswords - 75% dexterity.. why would you put any points into strength? Your equation is basically a nerf to non-100% type weapons or strength type weapons. Who will want to choose anything other than a rogue or mage? You can't use strength type weapons... you will be slow as hell and if you decide to increase your dexterity, it's only going drop your damage for anything other than foils which will be godly given, they aren't limited to a diminishing returns formula that effects their primary stat.. same goes for mages. They don't really need any other stats than Intelligence. So, these 2 classes and their corresponding stat weapons or magic, will recieve huge buffs but fighters, and multi-derivitive weapons other than UA and LS will recieve nerf. BTW, you could make a fighter, but you would have to be UA or LS to stand a chance late game.

In short, your idea sounds good at first glance but if you think about the way it will alter the game, you will see that it really doesn't balance things at all.

Reduce returns from stats on weapons like this to solve this problem in 2 seperate senario solutions depending on if you want to nerf overall damage or increase it.
A. Nerf B. Buff

100% - A. No change needed. B. Change to 200% benefit from stat.
75/25% - A. Reduce to 50/16%. B. Increase to 100/33%
50/50% -*A. Reduce to 25/25%. B. No changes needed.
Magic - A. No change needed. B. Change equations to benefit 200% from intelligence

*this might be confusing. Each stat gained is equal still but only worth half as much as it is now. 100 str and 100 dex treated as 100 total stats instead of 200.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Rusty76 » Wed May 06, 2009 10:18 am

Maybe I didn't express my idea clearly, I did type it up early this morning :-S

I'm saying that all three stats (str, dex and int) should be diminished by the same percent and that that percent should be computed from the players level.

So for 100%/0% classes (mage, maces and foils) you would be taking a large chunk of their most important stat and little to nothing from their other stats. For 75%/25% classes (shortswords, ranged, axes and polearms) you would be taking a smaller large chunk from the high stat and a very small chunk from the low stat and little or nothing from the third stat. For the 50%/50% classes (unarmed and longswords) you would take equal sized chunks from both stats and little or nothing from the third stat. The total amount of stat points lost from all three stats would be completely determined by the character's level only. So every character, regardless of their class, is losing the same number of stat points depending on their level. This is the simplest and fairest way to do it in my opinion. All it would take is to compute a percent based on the character's level and reduce all three stats by that percent. Effectively, you aren't diminishing a character's individual stats, you're diminishing a character's total stat points which makes the diminishing the same regardless of class.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Xero » Wed May 06, 2009 10:28 am

the result should still be the same.

if you reduce the total stats by a % there is still no reason to invest into strength if you're using 2 short swords. and fighters will get screwed from lack of dexterity. Mages will have the upper hand since they don't really need str or dex, the can devote their pull of points into Int. Rogues will have it pretty nice too if you'e going all foils. Dex increases their damage, increases their dodge, increases their defense, and increases their movement and attack speed. Strength for warrior increases their damage and hit points and how much they carry. Whos getting the shaft?
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Rusty76 » Wed May 06, 2009 10:50 am

A fighter's damage is not determined by strength alone nor is a rogue's damage determined by dexterity alone. A maces fighter gets all his damage from str. A axes or polearms fighter gets 75% of his damage from str and 25% of his damage from dex. a longswords or unarmed fighter gets his damage from both str and dex equally. A shortswords or ranged rogue gets 75% of his damage from dex and 25% of his damage from str. A foils rogue gets all his damage from his dex.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Xero » Wed May 06, 2009 11:26 am

right. I think I stated that in some of the above posts.
so diminishing the returns by a % of level will NOT fix the issue of equality among stats.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby eggmceye » Wed May 06, 2009 9:33 pm

I think diminished stats are correct as is, but the problem lies with how the bonuses are calculated now that stats are diminished.

Also here's a problem with rustys solution: say stats are diminished post some level, eg 100 (so that's about 685 stats total aprox)

player A has
200 str
200 int
200 dex

600 total, not diminished, about level 85


player B has
200 str
600 int
200 dex

1000 total, is about level 150

if you diminish all the stats all the time, then player B's 200 dex is now worth less than player A's 200 dex, which is completly unfair. They will walk more slowly, among other things.

What would work is if you just diminshed the bonuses based on the level of the player. So what are the bonuses to be diminished -
damage?

INT for spells
MR derived from int
HP derived from str
dodge bonus from dex


I should just scrap dim stats and put a cap back on instead X-D
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Xero » Wed May 06, 2009 10:06 pm

question:

Do diminishing returns effect both PD and Regular server or just Regular?
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Rusty76 » Thu May 07, 2009 9:13 am

eggmceye wrote:I think diminished stats are correct as is, but the problem lies with how the bonuses are calculated now that stats are diminished.

Also here's a problem with rustys solution: say stats are diminished post some level, eg 100 (so that's about 685 stats total aprox)

player A has
200 str
200 int
200 dex

600 total, not diminished, about level 85


player B has
200 str
600 int
200 dex

1000 total, is about level 150

if you diminish all the stats all the time, then player B's 200 dex is now worth less than player A's 200 dex, which is completly unfair. They will walk more slowly, among other things.

What would work is if you just diminshed the bonuses based on the level of the player. So what are the bonuses to be diminished -
damage?

INT for spells
MR derived from int
HP derived from str
dodge bonus from dex


I should just scrap dim stats and put a cap back on instead X-D


Yea I knew that it would lessen the smaller stats along with the larger ones. I was thinking you could attribute the stat loss to "aging" or something like that. I guess you're right though, it would be irritating to have 200 dex and then when you start getting higher level start losing dex points. And yea, you could diminish the bonuses computed from the stats instead of the stats themselves but it would mean working out a formula for each type of bonus and could get complicated.

Maybe you should just remove stat reduction and let players be as they are? What harm is there in it? Even with stat reduction off there are still areas in the game that only a handful of players could solo. With LUA it's a lot easier to make monsters that are scaled to the difficulty of the players fighting them so you don't have to worry about them not having a challenge. I dunno, just a thought is all.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby eggmceye » Thu May 07, 2009 9:24 am

I am seriously considering scrapping dim stats as it doesn't seem to bother me as much thesedays ... but will I inevitably regret it later?

here's my thoughtrain that started dim stats: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3132

I remember being really bothered by players growing in power indefinitely. I think I was also really bothered with the fact that I wanted to 'finish' euo somehow, and that by having players go to level infinity, then that would require infinite content.

I think reg is a write off anyway as far as balance and economy goes so maybe I should care less and scrap dim stats, and just make enough content for levels 1-100.
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Re: Stat balance

Postby Xero » Thu May 07, 2009 10:26 pm

egg,
did you read my post from the topic you linked?
It was mainly directed towards you to help give some ideas and share my online gaming experience with you. I hope it helps and provides you with fruitful ideas that you can use for future updates.
-Xero
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