Warrior brainstorm

"eventually EUO will get to the point its (sic) unplayable" - Dudle

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Jaral
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Warrior brainstorm

Post by Jaral » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:36 am

One of the great dissapointments to me when I first started this game was how... boring... warriors are. Don't get me wrong, they have their perks. They have high hps, can carry a lot, and get cool weapon specials. But thats it. No ranged, no special abilities unless you count bash (but all classes have a version of unlock, and the other versions dont break things in chests). They pass out damage the slowest of all classes, even with 2h weapons. They have to use black potions (which no one makes, therefore must find drops) in order to invis when the situation calls for it. They are dependant on potions and scrolls (not a bad thing really - maybe there is room for some expansion here).

Currently I see them like this:
Pros:
-High Hps
-High carrying ability
-Weapon specials rock, step in the right direction.

Cons:
-Slow leveling due to slowest damage output of all classes
-No ability to charm or summon, even with pots/scrolls (this makes hard combats much much easier.)
-Very limited healing ability unless you have an alchie friend making mega yellows for you.
-Not much "flare" or "fun". You just walk around hitting things. No sneaking, no casting different spells. Just walking and hitting.
-No ranged attacks except bloodbolt, which doesnt really count for this category.
-Melee takes much longer to be effective vs high level monsters than magic, due to high DEF of dragons/balrons etc.
-Generally the slowest walking around too- mages get EU, rogues get more value from their dex (melee dmg), so they get higher dex.
-Some people claim to be able to solo kill everything but SLs with warriors, but I dont see how they are pulling that off. Anyone who wants to explain to me how a warrior kills a balron solo, Im all ears.

I really love warriors and I'd like to get some ideas going for how they can be made more interesting/effective without losing the whole warriors-dont-use-magic-or-skullduggery thing. Anyone?

My ideas for now are:
-Special Attacks that cost fatigue or mana or something. Maybe a limited area attack, where the warrior spins around and hits things adjacent to him. Maybe shieldbash or headbutt, which knocks an opponent down and prevents them from using magic/pots/skills/atks/movement etc for 1-2secs. There can be many more ideas in this vein.
-Berserk, where the fighter doubles AS/DMG/movement but reduces DEF to 10 and cant shieldblock?
-Id like to see warriors able to dual-wield 1h weapons... I know this has been brought up before and shot down, but it would be SO COOL.

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Keighn
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Post by Keighn » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:42 pm

Maybe shieldbash or headbutt
That's definitely on par with U5 as I remember Spiked Shields and spiked helmets.
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Aristarch
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Post by Aristarch » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:53 am

You forgot to add that warriors in general are heavily dependant on proper equipment. They are also a lot slower to level than rogues and mages.
The reasons are all of those you have posted.

For taking out balrons and other high stuff the XJ weapons seem the most useful, but they are rare and cost much.

Carrying capacity isn't that much important. Potions don't weigh that much now and you have to carry your weapons, armours, hammers, bandages etc - mages don't.
You use up resources which are often annoying to replenish(all the potions for example) - as a mage I could only have some neccesary scrolls and a vigour set which would almost make me a perpetuum mobile.
You don't have a class perk of a scale the mages or rogues have - fast travel, invisiblity on your wish.
It's boring to hack and slash monsters using something special only occasionally - would be fun to have to use combinations in fight that if performed correctly would increase damage for that one move but could be omitted in a standard fight.
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Re: Warrior brainstorm

Post by BlackMage » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:58 am

Jaral wrote:Cons:
-Slow leveling due to slowest damage output of all classes
-No ability to charm or summon, even with pots/scrolls (this makes hard combats much much easier.)
-Very limited healing ability unless you have an alchie friend making mega yellows for you.
-Not much "flare" or "fun". You just walk around hitting things. No sneaking, no casting different spells. Just walking and hitting.
-No ranged attacks except bloodbolt, which doesnt really count for this category.
-Melee takes much longer to be effective vs high level monsters than magic, due to high DEF of dragons/balrons etc.
-Generally the slowest walking around too- mages get EU, rogues get more value from their dex (melee dmg), so they get higher dex.
-Some people claim to be able to solo kill everything but SLs with warriors, but I dont see how they are pulling that off. Anyone who wants to explain to me how a warrior kills a balron solo, Im all ears.
Oh god. I'm not trying to be negative here, but seriously, look at what you're saying.

-Slow leveling --- So not true. Look at Artemis, Heikki, or Akioka. They came in, and completely dominated being fighters. They used potions and spells and whatever else in a successful combination in order to do what they did. You just have to figure that part out for yourself, or ask.

-No ability to charm or summon --- If you want to charm or summon something, then be a mage. Or just get a pet if you want something to help you battle stuff.

-Limited healing abilities --- this one is a little bit understandable, but being a fighter, you can carry tons of potions and tons of bandages, plus you have meditation as well. Mega potions only weigh 2.5 now instead of 5 so you can effectively carry double the amount that you once could.

-No flare or fun --- I don't understand this one... did you think you would be able to jump off walls and do a move like "You sliced open the minotaur and his guts fell out!"? Fighters are tanks; high HP and high Defense. That's all you SHOULD be able to do is walk around and beat the crap out of things.

-No ranged attacks --- This has been something that's been annoying me from everyone whining and wanting ranged for fighters. NO! If you want ranged weapons, then be a rogue. Not every class should be equal in abilities.

-Melee --- I don't know about this one because I have low level fighters, but the low level fighters I do have seem to be able to take on everything except dragons pretty effectively.

-Slowest movements --- You have to take into account about the stuff you wear, the weapon speed that you are using, and your total amount of dex. Once you get high enough levels, the str cancels out (to an extent) what you wear, so you move at a normal speed. I've seen Heikki run around like a rogue with nothing on while he was wearing full addy field plate gear. And mages only get a +100 to EU now. You can BARELY tell a difference with it now.

-Claim to take on "the impossible" --- It can be done, and I've seen it done. You have to use the proper weapons, specials, and damage types.

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Post by Keighn » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:26 am

Not wanting to turn this into a class vs. class thread; Mages don't even stand a chance vs. Shadowlords without a fighter or rouge to cleave or disarm it. As Heikki said they're invulnerable to magic otherwise. And fighters have the hp to take the high damaging lightning, xcs and whatever.
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Jaral
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Post by Jaral » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:13 am

BM, disagreement and critical discussion are welcome, just so long as it is polite of course.
I don't play reg, so I have not met any of the players you mentioned who dominated as warriors. Is the list longer than those three? Pretty much everyone who plays a mage can dominate. If there is some arcane secret to playing a warrior well, I have no idea what it is. Super-equipment does not count, since it is extremely difficult to obtain (and rightly so). Also if these warriors were playing during the old enchanting system, then that is an apples-to-oranges comparison with the current setup of the game. Also maybe good equipment is much easier to get on reg? I don't know. I think you will find that pretty much no one agrees that warriors level as fast as rogues or mages. They simply pass out damage slower, which in the end is the most important factor for leveling speed.

My main point was that warriors are simply not much fun to play. I was not suggesting that any particular item on the con list needed to be changed. Actually it was not a very good list. Aristarch brought up some of the more important items. In most games, I greatly prefer being a warrior. EUO is one of the only games that I dont. I tried playing warrior on all three servers and eventually gave up to play rogue, which was much easier, leveled quicker and was more powerful. Later I decided to try a mage, which was even more easy/fast/powerful.

Last thing: I would prefer not to make this into a whine fest about why warriors are inferior. I would rather discuss how they can be made more interesting to play.

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Keighn
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Post by Keighn » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:38 am

Well, let's take this from the PD perspective since it is extremely deadly and permanent unless you pay for stones or resurrections. Here's how I started HULK who is a pure mace fighter.

Did quests, etc and bought all the heavy regular non + armour I could get my hands on. Raised meditation and healing to the max as fast as possible. Used a shield and mace weapon only putting stats on strength until remort (as I'd gain more potential hp after remort). At first I learned the basic healing spells and light (heal selft, cure poison, cure disease) and raised those up to 25. Once my def was past 20 or 25 I trained my block on insects to 100. I eventually by luck acquired a vampyric mace weapon (used only after I got healing and meditation up to 100). I then raised Taming and got a pet Minoshaman for additional healing support which saved my bacon many many times.

Once I hit lvl 53 I wore Croc ring, lvl 56 I wore spkd collar+4. Most of my gear is str or dex gear except for jewelry and torso. Remort at lvl 75 so I get my str up to 200 first. I then get my dex up to 200 so I can dodge attacks. The rest now goes to nothing but strength. If I was smart I'd put some on INT to get more MR but HULK is dumb so tough on that. I get my taming up to 100% and work on getting a dragon. Through dilligent dedication I get a fire dragon finally. Damn, forgot an important fact that I also get my Inscription up to at least 90(preferrably 100) asap for the protection scrolls (invulnerable to disease, poison and +5 def). With the fire dragon I become a relative killing machine for a fighter and I start training other weapon skills for the fun of it (AXE being the most deadly for high lvl mobs, and polearms to clear lowlevel mobs). I'm about lvl 180 and do fairly well. I'm no where near the skill of say TheCrusher (a rogue) or the mages, but I can handle a lot of mobs pretty nicely (mostly due to the pet dragon which i get xp off of for its kills thankfully). I still can't handle a balron without potions (and even with I would only attempt with a res stone).

I lost my latest res stone when my fire dragon was cloned by a lich. BAM! a little lag and I'm dead. Still, any melee creature I can wipe out nicely. Most magic creatures of low to mid stature are no problem. My biggest fears are lag, Balrons, Shadow Mages, upper dragons, lots of dragons/magic casters, clones of my dragon.

I can only imagine what HULK will be like at lvl 300 (hopefully I find another res stone).
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2 birds with 1 stone...

Post by Dudle » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:21 am

Ive seen people complain about fighters and no ranged before and Ive also seen a suggestion for thrown weapons.

Why not make a thrown weapons skill for fighters (dex and skill will play a part for accuracy - while str, skill and item material determine damage).

This would get rid of some crafted/found weapons sitting in banks and would be cool to see in 3D.


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Post by Keighn » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:49 pm

Another thing that might want to be pointed out is that historically, warriors(soldiers) of all sorts used missile weapons. The rogue types used such as well but nearly as frequently. And if you want to look at a very historical character that used throwing weapons very effectively then look here:

Peltast
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