onilne rpg philosophy : levels, level cap and/or no levels

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Postby eggmceye » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:18 am

the new diminishing returns formula

I had been tooling around with my own formula in a spreadsheet for a bit last year but gave up.

Yesterday I went back checked out scg's link above again very carefully, poked around in a spread sheet with it for a while and decided that it was either too harsh too late, but it did help me visualise what euo needed.

ok so, if your stat (and it's your raw stat, not boosted, or NG doubled) is over 600:

value = stat * ( 1 - 0.007 * ( stat - 600 ) / 30 )

lets plug in some values:
600 - > 600
900 -> 837
1200 -> 1032
1500 -> 1185
1800 -> 1296
2100 -> 1365
2400 -> 1392

This works up to approx 400 levels of 6 pts pumped into 1 stat (with 80 spread between the other 2). Once a stat gets to 2400 approx then the formula has to change as the stat value no longer increases but goes into decline (I consdidered leaving this in and attributing it to 'old age'):

stat>2400: stat=stat*0.57

2700 -> 1539
3000 -> 1710

Considering no one is going to get 2400 in a stat except me it doesn't really matter. Diminished stats is disabled for DM's anyway X-D
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Postby Aristarch » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:29 pm

I really like the idea!
Wouldn't it be better to make it an exponential relation? There wouldn't be any turning point somewhere along, it would constantly decrease ad infinitum.
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Postby eggmceye » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:58 am

tried to get a perfect exponential formula but lost interest

but maybe the exponential formula could work for stats worth 2400+ , instead of a linear formula. Something to think about when someone gets to 2400 int (raiden)
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Postby Gulnar » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:21 pm

I guess from Raiden's complaining about missing mana rather than int, that the raw stat still shows up in the player stat screen, and the stat "value" only is used in calculated stats (like mana).

The diminishing stat returns should encourage players to go for a more balanced selection of stats. Previously, game mechanics generally favor developing 1 stat over the other 2. It seems like a lot of folks really have gone all out in their main class stat. Diminishing returns are going to hit people like Raiden (all INT) harder than me (monk with roughly 50/50 STR/DEX). I've got some further thoughts on stat balancing I'll post in another thread, but it might be good to offer a stat redistribution option now that diminishing returns are in. I think egg had mentioned stat redistribution as a possible perk he could sell. That would be a good idea.

I have no interest in grinding to lvl 400 (=2400 in a stat), but I wouldn't put it past some people to do so. I notice with alarm that there is a perverse incentive to do so. Beyond 2400, stat gains go back up (and returns are constant, not diminishing) Going from 2100 to 2400 raw stat only gets you an additional (1392-1365)=27 calculated value. Going from 2400 to 2700 gives an additional 147 calculated value.

Some kind of exponential (log) formula would be better, but I'm not getting anywhere with it.

Minor quibble: In "stat=stat*0.57", is the .57 a typo for .58? It doesn't make a huge difference, but since the multiplier from the main formula is .58 @2400, if it jumps to .57, the player experiences a overall decline in abilities for a few levels.
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Postby Keighn » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:32 pm

Is weight limit affected by this system. Say I have 1200 str would my limit still be 1200?
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Postby Aristarch » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:40 pm

Try following formula:

For stats > than 600: value = 600 + (1 - e^(-b * (stat - 600))) / b

B is a coefficient: 0 < b < 1 (looks ok at about 0.001).

I'll send you a spreadsheet if you want.

Actually, instead all of that, why don't just make levelling harder, ie. more steep experience/level curve? That would be effectively the same, plus it would limit extra hp from levels and that is not affected by current formula.
If only we didn't have those levels already.
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Postby TheCrusher » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:45 am

Seems like its a good idea and everything for reg, since a good bit of people are over, at, or near the level 200 cap. But what about leaving the diminishing returns on stats off of the PD server? Just since most people have trouble making it very high to begin with, and no one has ever (or probably will ever) reach the level 1000 cap. And if anyone does reach it, by some strange chance. You could just add something to reduce stats once level > 1000.

Just my two cents.
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Postby Eidolon » Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:39 pm

just a quick question, why was the number 600 picked? it seems kind've random to me?

seeing as the cap is at level 200, why not have the "diminishing stats formula" start at a level 200's worth of stats (1274 total stats)?

it makes sense what you're doing with the formula, just the way its being gone abt doesnt quite make sense to me.

not trying to make problems.. just wondering :)
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Postby Aristarch » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:45 pm

600 corresponds to 100 levels and I believe that was the initial idea on cap.
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Postby eggmceye » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:49 am

yeh it's a good question.

Rough answer is that I just fucked around in a spreadsheet until I liked what I saw. Now I am trying to figure out exactly why I picked out 600.

Not sure I guess - originally I was working off 1200 but I think I couldn't get a satisfactory formula but got a good one when starting with 600 (ie I saw that the degradation was quite slow so I made it start eariler).

1200 pts of stats assume that you put all your levels into one stat. But even mages get 200-300 str right? And fighters have 200 dex right?

So a lvl 150 mage with 50 lvls of str (20+300=320) has 99 lvls of int === 30+99*6=624.

So at lvl 150 you barely have any reason to 'complain'.


If 930 int (approx lvl 200 mage) is only worth 859, as raiden puts it, that is 12 levels of int lost, it sounds kinda harsh.

On a slightly related but unrelated note, a lvl 150 can lvl up a lot faster than a lvl 50 AND have more fun doing it.
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Postby Eidolon » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:28 pm

yeh once i plugged my stats into the formula i saw i was only missing like 40 dex. it's not that big of a difference. i lost abt 5-7 dmg every hit.

not trying to be trivial, but just fyi - most mages these days get 150 str MAAAX. when i had eidolon at level 150 or so, i had 205 str. the only other mage i knew to have higher str than that was sunfire with 237 or something like that (and he was the experimental type).

i think this is a great idea, and had a little trouble finding why people are complaining. but then i figured it out - at close to level 200, it can be annoyingly difficult to get a level, and the idea of only getting 6 stats added onto your character after abt 2 hrs of intense hunting might not seem exactly worthwhile. then when people realize they're not even getting that, thats when riots start.

anyways, i'm done now.
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Postby Gulnar » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:53 pm

[quote="Eidolon"]
not trying to be trivial, but just fyi - most mages these days get 150 str MAAAX. when i had eidolon at level 150 or so, i had 205 str./quote]

This is pretty much what I was ranting about in the other thread. I don't have any hard data, but I think people tend to go for evenish distributions of stats far less than egg thinks.
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Postby eggmceye » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:05 pm

hasn't raiden gotten 11 levels this weekend? :roll: I got 1.5 on lvl 58 ocean - I'm not cut out for rpgs
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Postby Eidolon » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:11 am

i got 213% in 45 minutes on Eid (now level 27) last night :P

kinda mind blowing
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Postby Grodst » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:43 pm

Eidolon wrote:i got 213% in 45 minutes on Eid (now level 27) last night :P

kinda mind blowing


You lvl quickly until a brick wall smacks you around 38-40.
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Re: onilne rpg philosophy : levels, level cap and/or no levels

Postby Xero » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:23 am

*********WALL OF TEXT ALERT ************


I was reading through the forums and came across this interesting forum. I have my own philosophy on the matter just like everyone does and has an asshole ect. I understand completely where both sides are coming from here in these arguments. I hope it's not too late to post some suggestions or fixes I have on the matter. First, I am qualified to relate on these topics because I was the strongest player on another online rpg where there were thousands of accounts and generally 50-200 people on at any given time. I made suggestions to help shape the way the game developed dispite the fact that my own suggestions would hurt my way of play. I quit that game to go to college where I took up classes in psych. but enough about me here are my fixes on this matter...

1. Problem: how do you draw new players when new players won't feel like they have a chance against elite players who have played for way longer?
A. Players join games for different reasons. The main reason players and people choose to join events, games, clubs, ect. is a similiar interest to socialize with like minded people. Ultimatly people do not care about the mechanics of the game (in most cases) they only care that they can come socialize and make new friends or compete against other people with their friends. The solution here is to give players more options of what to do with their time on the game. This will draw more people who will become interested in what they like. Make options for people who are highly competitive so that they can compete against one another (more pvp options. that have unique rewards for participating player such as unique armors, weapons, ect.). Make an option for people that strive to be number 1 and/or are OCD or just highly self-motivated! (grinding). Make an option for someone that wants to spend their time tryng to buy their way into power (an auction house maybe). Make an option for people that want to be the best craftsman and they need to make unique equipment of their own or enhancement bonuses that no one can get without them. Create areas that are just absolutly impossible to handle without the help of multiple party members and make the rewards for these areas much greater than for a normal area. The idea here is to apply to everyone's sense of accomplishment and what motivates them while at the same time bringing together those people so that they can socialize. Socialists are the most important part of any rpg. It makes up probably 95% or better of the player base.

2. Problem: I don't want my game to be about grinding. I want it to be as if people of better skill can do better than people that have grinded with no skills.
A. There is always some degree of grinding in any rpg unless it's just completely roleplay then there is still arguably some grinding. I guess you have to ask yourself where you draw the line in terms of what is comfortable for you to be concidered grinding too much... there are 2 paths here for you to take as far as I can see. Both are going to require alot of work to get done correctly.
Senario 1: You will have to force players to select from a limited selection of multiple races, classes, jobs, professions, magic types, ect. then cap them at about 2-3 months worth of work for steady grinders. Say level 100 since that was a comfortable number mentioned. Say someone picked: Elf, ranger, fleching & bowcrafting, and since they can't learn other types of magic they had to go with a limited use of life magic or something ... being rangers and all. This person gets unique bonuses from their race like the +dex, int, bows or something... as a ranger they get 100 bows, 30 life magic, 100 longsword, 50 shields can wear leather or chain armor or something, can craft bows and make multiple types of arrows all the way up to difficulty of lvl 100. ect. You will have to create such a diversity so that players won't feel forced into being "sandboxed" as someone put it. The replay on this system is great so that each player will want to recreate as something else and try something new. The downfall to this system is balancing. There will be alot of bitching about which certain classes being better than their class. Again, the balancing comes with the paper,rock,scissors style where whats good against one class isn't nessesarily good against another. IE: rogues do lots of damage real quickly to mages who have little armor but armor wearers can stand against a rogue's blades and the mage dominates he plate wearer as his plate does not nessesarily protect him against the mage's spells.. again this may not hold true if the player has chosen to equip themselves to fight against certain player types.

Solution 2: Create a completely open system. While fighting, you level up as normal. When you level you get to choose what skills to increase the cap on. This does not give you the skills, only increases the cap on them. So if you're fighting and you level up, you get say 5 points to distribute among your skills say... magery, healing, parrying, dodging, blocking, 2 handed swords, 2 handed maces.... foils, daggers, long sword, bows, tactics, accuracy, magic defense, magic penetration (for canceling magic defense), magic accuracy, magic dodge, ect . *one important note here is that there needs to be a counter for every skill. for instance accuracy and dodging. tactics and blocking (for lesser damage) or parrying ect. whatever skills you have in this combat system, you need an equal counterpart that does the opposite so that there isn't an imbalance for offensive or defensive skills. Don't cap this system, just create alot of skills to develope so that it is impossible for any one person to develope themself perfectly as someone that comes along developed differently will be an answer to their strengths or weak depending on how they leveled themself up also. Again, it only increases the cap, they would have to fight from that point to gain the actual skills from fighting using what they increases... for instance increasing magery's cap they still have to use magery to get it to it's cap. races will have to be revamped so that they provide bonuses to skills rather than stats as stats wont exist anymore. Finally, for the issue of players become too strong, they will have their counterpart monsters which are particuliarly good at killing them. Develop the skills on those monsters as if they are players of corresponding level with different builds. Ultimatly, you will have to create a "random dungeon" for those hardcore grinding gamers matching the highest level person in the party and having a corresponding amount of monsters to party members. The monsters generated will have random skills matching their level of course and give correct experience for something that level. Each floor will have an exit for returning to town and another set of stairs going down. Players cannot use recall scrolls to get back to town. Going further into the dungeon yields better equipment while resetting the dungeon begins them all over again. Randomly generate the tile setup so that each floor is unique as well as the chests, monster setup and skills of course. Party members that exit the dungeon are disbanded from the party (they must exit through the town exit) For crafting.. you will have to still limit it to 1 professional trade per person because it's not sensible to have everyone good at every craft. that will kill trading. Not to say that you can't continuously and infinitatly get better at your craft! The limiting factor here is materials. Create several materials which are needed to craft certain things. The higher your skills, the more rare materials you will need. Skillup as if you don't have a cap here. Can create (or buff or socket w/e) whatever you want in your school of craft as long as you have the correct materials and you don't fail and destroy the materials :P the higher an item is above your skill level, the higher the probability of failure and destruction.

3. Problem: I can never beat this player. He has +9 axe and all +9 golden armor of defense!
A: Randomize your item drops more so than they are. there are very limited amounts of things that can be dropped but one thing that holds true is that there is a determined mind set of what items are better. It's black and white and it needs to be greyed so to speak. Give your item drops multiple attributes all catering to a different type of build so that if the platewearer wants to sacrifice something like defense or ability to hit for extra magic resistance, he can do that if he is lucky enough to get some peices to drop (this encourages trading also). Just like diablo style you can give an item a random prefix, a random suffix, any amount of random slots for gems, runes or whatever, throw on some random stats and/or random skill % ups, range the defense, attack, hit%, dodge % values, ect. you get the idea. bigger bonuses and higher range values on group quests/ raids or whatever ^^


This concludes my wall of text. If you haven't fallen asleep please give me some feedback. If you have any questions about this wall of text or don't understand any part of it. I will be happy to explain.

-Xero
Last edited by Xero on Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: onilne rpg philosophy : levels, level cap and/or no levels

Postby KingDavid » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:42 am

Simply solution would be to make harder dungeons for the uber high levels; who've played so long only to see there stats are worth shit. :lesson: Who cares if there super strong, thats kinda the point of online games anyway.
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Re: onilne rpg philosophy : levels, level cap and/or no levels

Postby Xero » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:16 pm

KingDavid wrote:Simply solution would be to make harder dungeons for the uber high levels; who've played so long only to see there stats are worth shit. :lesson: Who cares if there super strong, thats kinda the point of online games anyway.



This does not address the problem, only delays it further until more difficult dungeons are needed, and so on and so on
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