onilne rpg philosophy : levels, level cap and/or no levels

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onilne rpg philosophy : levels, level cap and/or no levels

Postby eggmceye » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:03 am

Even tho I'm on holidays in Vietnam I can't stop thinking about euo :) cec likes blogging in the hotels so here I am posting. We've been driven around a lot last couple of days so I've enjoyed time to think.

Ok so further to that thread ( http://forums.swut.net/viewtopic.php?t=3039 )I posted about going to melbourne, where my key points posted & learned were:

  • can't really have a set story in morpgs as there is no time - background story is ok
  • this is ok as players make their own stories - the developer is there to make the playground
  • grinding is bad - if not unethical under certain circumstances

I wanted to expand my thoughts some and get some feedback.

  • I think levels and levelling is OK with restrictions
  • the restrictions should be: either a LOW cap or fast progression to the cap
  • or of course you could just scrap levelling entirely and do it UO/NG style (I'm undecided on my preferred system and don't mind having two servers - they both have pros and cons)
  • but why? Because I don't want EUO to be primarily about levelling - but why?? Because I believe that when the sole factor determining the difference in strength between two players is how long one has grinded more than the other is just naff - and of course in a pay to play scenario - this suits the developer, and could be deemed unethical
  • with levels and NO cap (or even no cap on stats for NG) then this clearly tells the player - the more you play the stronger you get. I would like to avoid this. I know some people have said that they like the metered rewards from playing, rewards RL can't give them but I'm not quite comfortable with this unexpected community service I'm provinding

If EUO is not about levelling, then what is it about and how can one player be better than another once the playing field is level? (ie they are both at the cap)
  • EUO is already twitchy - a fast keyboard masher, some dexterity and practice required
  • strategy: there is some already - much room for expansion
  • combinations: further to strategy
  • builds: classes on reg, skillsets on NG
  • socialising, pking, story telling, RP

repercussions of a level cap:
  • how to fix players already over cap
  • players under cap will want to redistribute stats
  • need to provide new challenges for when you are at the cap

conclusions
  • lvl 200 cap is not a bad start but it is too high for various reasons .... i) sets a real "reach me" bar / goal to play for but takes too long to get there when I'm trying to make levelling NOT the main reason to play
  • I think lvl 100 is more appropriate - though I think it may still be slow to get there - I think to fix this add more quest-content - so that quests make up 30-50% xp - currently they give 30% xp to lvl 50 approx
  • once you get to 100 then there has to be something to do other than levelling - BUT this shouldn't be a problem since levelling was not what I wanted the main point of EUO to be, right?
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Postby Keighn » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:21 am

I'm curious if you have in the euo logs the maximum traffic that has been on each of the servers throughout the life of this game? It is really hard for me to gauge an opinion without some hard data from the past.

How has each patch affected the playerbase?
Which changes have flip-flopped on and off?
Which changes have had more complaints?
Which changes have had extreme compliments?
Are players more interested in bottlenecking certain aspects of the game?
or
Would having as many options open as possible be better?

===================
Some of my views:

I've never really been much for constants grinding, but that doesn't mean I don't like the option of any level possible to be attained tossed in the rubbish bin either. Sooner or later people who grind will get bored. If they don't then they are definitely very compulsive.

Story and RP can be hard to throw in at an instant onset. For story, that can be left per map maker or questmaker to confer with you depending if you want anything that really makes EUO based on a plotline you'd like to follow. I don't know if you ever have plans for a true "End Game Scenario" for euo, but if there was one that a particular player found via certain quests then at the very end you might want to consider an option to truly retire that player to be an NPC in the game, throw them in some sort of hall of fame, or let them continue in game without anything special happening. I really don't think I've played too many multiplayer PVP/PVM games that had an actually ending.

RPing is always easier if there is a "storyteller" or "DM" so to speak in the game who can manipulate aspects like a god. Sometimes you would need a GM to work with a storyteller to keep the game/story going and keep people in check. Such storytelling might need to be scheduled so people know when this session is to be going on. You may want to set participants in this session with limits on what level they can be or items they use.

If we're talking just in general rp via player to player then you might want to restrict global more so "idiot talk" isn't as common as it is now. I know I've done my share of blather and I'm pretty sure it can get annoying. If people want to do pure socializing they should party of be in close proximity to talk; not make global the full chatty time. I do realize that global can be turned off so perhaps it doesn't matter. Maybe a separate "Role-Play" "/rp on /rp off channel (probably not necessary).

My brain is a tad frazzled atm so I'm not thinking clearly.
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Posted Events...

Postby Dudle » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:03 am

Hi,

Most of the games i played had set areas you could access while you were of a certain lvl - venturing beyond the area for you lvl meant a swift death, while returning to previous areas provided little or no rewards - as i typed this i realized that in WOW they had a scaled range for monsters that were 4< your lvl <4 that would give you experience. This wouldnt be a bad idea to model ingame lvl experience off of - not exactly the same thing but something similar.

I was thinking about the idea of DM created/run events...invasions and such...and having the date and time posted in the forums. There could even be a reminder upon logging on the game to look at the forums for the next scheduled event. Make braziers that act like monster generators in Gauntlet and place them in and around a friendly town. Should be fun!

Retirement would be neat if it allowed you to play the next game developed my egg, purely as beta testers, how many people would rush to lvl 200 for that! :cool:


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Postby eggmceye » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:21 pm

Let's stick to talking about level cap, no level cap, or no levels at all.

It crossed my mind not only to take PD off NG but to make it the default server for new players, and to encourage people to make the switch. Probably an idle threat.

I'm concerned about the lvl 200 cap now ... it screams 'reach me' but it takes too long - I'm worried it is actually encouraging grinding. But what to do ?

reason for putting lvl 200 cap on originally:
i) to stop ppl getting too powerful
ii) to discourage endless grinding

reason for having cap now (after more thought)
i) to stop ppl getting too powerful
ii) to have a game where lvls don't mean anything - ie power doesn't equate to time spent

Now I wonder if this logic is partially flawed? Why shouldn't someone who has played for ages and ages be awesome? I'm a little conflicted I admit.

Help me out here! Someone said a RPG w/o levels is like a BBQ w/o meat ... BUT maybe this only applies 100% to single player RPGS. MPORPGS are still kinda new ... and most are profit driven ... it suits the companies that make them to have players grinding ad infinitum.
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Postby Keighn » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:42 am

I've only played or attempted to play 3 MORPGs and that is EUO, Wyvern, and Dransik Classic. Of those 3 I naturally stuck with EUO for some reason (probably due to my Ultima roots and the fact the other two games took too much of my dial-up modem resources and crashed too much).

If we're talking for the new server for introducing new players then a level cap is perfectly fine. Actually, I was talking with someone who played the current NG and they were very thrilled at the possibility of the "PD" aspect disappearing.

As to grinding itself, I just don't see how people can cotinue doing it for hours on end myself. I either get bored (I hate to say that) going through the same area time and time again just battling the same thing to get that next "level."

Obviously levelling is the heart and soul of most rpgs but that's it. I'd say levelling (be it levels, stats, items, armies) forms your basic skeleton of a game. The next step up is content and options.

It'd be nice to hear some thoughts from others out there. So quit your GRINDING and give egg some feedback please.
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Postby Ulric » Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:52 am

Hmm... Things I have been wonder for some time now.

What is grinding?

Is it killing monsters over and over in the same location?

Is it doing the same thing over an over for example mining ore or cutting wood?

Can you grind quests? For example if a player finishes all the quests EUO offers then would that be considered quest grinding?

Can you skill grind? For example get to 100% on all the possible skills is that skill grinding?

What does EUO offer that is not grinding?

What is wrong with grinding? After coming home from work it is good for me to mindlessly kill the same monsters over and over. No thinking involved is very good your mental health.

Would anyone do anything if they can not gain something from it?

Why would I play EUO if I could not gain something from it? Lvls for example.

I quess this brings up more questions like:

What is wrong with being the best?

Why do we need to stop people from being the best?

Why can't I kill a shadow lord with one punch from my bare fist?

Why should I be held back so others can catch up to me?

If watching grass grow is boring to you does it have to be boring to me?

After thinking about all these things I have come to realize that a lvl cap is there to make the sand box smaller so that everyone can be the same.

I do not want to be the same as everyone else. If am the same as others it should by quiescence not by design.

I do not like the idea off being held back for the sake of being held back. Which is what lvl capping is.
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Postby Khelben » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:10 am

Personally, I like MMO's that has something to grind for. I haven't played EUO actively for over 2 years now; I reached level 80-something and noticed that clearing Pendragon got me X% closer to next level, at the same time, Zenmai was level 170-something and I quickly calculated how long it would take me to reach that. I gave up the grind. (This does not mean that I think EUO sucks, it just means that the grind in EUO is (almost) endless and not very rewarding). It still was fun to grind Pendragon to some extent solely for gear-upgrades.

I'm still playing WoW (for over 2 years now, gg) and I have to say, Blizzard knows how to keep the game interesting, and they have the money to do it. Yes, WoW is very time-consuming if played seriously but it feels damn rewarding whenever you reach the current level-cap, overcome some new encounter and whatnot.

I know, it's damn silly to compare EUO to WoW but these are the 2 MMO's which I've played for the longest. What EUO needs, in my humble opinion, is a levelcap which can be reached in ~3-4 months AND something that keeps the player in the game after that.

Oki, let's say people reached that cap, did the dungeons, bought the t-shirt, what next?

[insert lots of work for egg]

Expansions! Slightly higher level-cap (+- the time it took to grind to the old one), new content, new weapons, new stuff,etc, etc. Great for letting the story around EUO evolve as well. I'm not a big fan of just downloading generic patches that add 1 or 2 new features and some tweaks. (again, I know there's limited resources here and I have NO intention whatsoever to undermine or disrespect what is and has been egg's ultima online).

I'll stop writing here before I step too heavily on anyone's toes. I feel like I'm not writing anything of much sense at the moment either.
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Postby Khelben » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:37 am

I just read your post Ulric and you have some good points there.

After thinking about all these things I have come to realize that a lvl cap is there to make the sand box smaller so that everyone can be the same.


This is probably the thing which is on everyone's mind and which keeps people pressing for that top 10 position on the scoreboard, keeps players buying avatars, houses, named items, keeps skilling for that new title, basically anything to be unique in one way or another (I have a mongbat-avatar).

What makes someone the best in EUO; is it the one with the highest level which 90% of the players will never reach, the one who has the gear to PK everyone else, the one with most gold?

There needs something for people to strive (read:grind?) for should there be a level-cap. Sorry for bringing WoW up again but the main element in WoW which makes people unique is his guild's progress and the items he has been rewarded with for going with his 24 companions to X-dungeon and overcome Y-bossencounter.
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Postby Rusty76 » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:17 am

Ulric wrote:What is wrong with grinding? After coming home from work it is good for me to mindlessly kill the same monsters over and over. No thinking involved is very good your mental health.

This has been my main motivation to grind also. After work is it relaxing to just go mindlessly kill monsters. I spent a lot of time under River's End doing that.

Ulric wrote:Would anyone do anything if they can not gain something from it? Why would I play EUO if I could not gain something from it? Lvls for example.

This is the problem I have with Rusty. I reached the cap in about a year and a half and I was happy when I finally got there. But now i'm kinda depressed about it. I enjoy playing Rusty but I no longer gain any benefit for doing so. I've created alts and have been playing them and they are fun but truth be told I still enjoy playing Rusty more because that's the type of char I like. There is really not much point in having more than 3 chars since the game forces you to pick a class (fighter, rogue, mage) if you want to be successful.

Ulric wrote:I do not want to be the same as everyone else. If am the same as others it should by quiescence not by design.

I defintely agree with this statement. When I started EUO I wanted to be a monk, mainly because I didn't want to have to deal with item wear but also because I liked the simplicity of it. After playing for a while I realized that no matter how hard I tried my monk would always be inferior to a rogue of same lvl and similar equipment. So I switched to rogue from being a monk, though I really didn't want a rogue. I wish I had the ability to pick the class skills I wanted instead of being forced to go fighter, mage or rogue. If that were so I could create the char I really wanted and EUO would have a truly 'classless' system. I had made a suggestion on the forums a long time ago that instead of the current 125% class system maybe we should have say a 400% cap on just class skills. So for example you could get 100% in unarmed, stealth, locks and traps or perhaps 100% in longswords, tactics, piety and magery. I know this is similar to the way NG operates but i'm talking about capping just the class skills. This way everyone could make their chars the way they wanted.

eggmceye wrote:Let's stick to talking about level cap, no level cap, or no levels at all.

The level cap is a good idea because the power of players needs to be limited. If there was no cap then the average level of the playerbase would steadly increase and you'd have to be constantly creating new tougher content for them. This is not a good thing. I don't think that 200 is too high of a level cap either since there are still places in-game that kick my butt.

I played NG briefly and I was going to make a monk (suprisingly) and I noticed something. Fighting unarmed only boosted my strength which doesnt make sense because unarmed uses strength and dexterity equally for damage and AS calculation. Maybe when you are using the weapon skills they should boost your stats according to their strength dexterity ratio. This is the only real problem I have with NG. I don't even mind the skill total cap as I could create alts for purely crafting purposes. It actually makes more sense that way. No one character should be able to be a grandmaster in all the crafting skills.
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Postby eggmceye » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:56 pm

The #1 gripe from players near or at the cap is that there is nothing to grind for once hitting 200. Then why not give them something to grind for at 200+?

Given that I don't want them getting any more stat gains (the main benefit of levelling) what could be alternatives?

* increase in class cap, 1% per lvl
* increased chance to crit per lvl
* faster rage gain
* X spell does more dmg
* faster mana/hp regen
* improved (insert skilltype here - eg improved tactics)

They have to be something that can be selected at a shrine a lot. Also I think the cap should be 100 :0

Finally, a cap is not there to make all players equal - it is there to keep them from being too powerful for the game.
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Postby Rusty76 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:16 pm

I'm not sure about things that would make players do more damage. There might be more benefit from that than what you would get from the normal +6 stat gain. Faster rage/mana/hp gain and crit chance would result in more more damage being done also (because you could live longer or have more mana to use). If players gain the ability to inflict more damage or live longer isn't that the same as just getting +6 to a stat?

Improved skills would be good but maybe limit which skills which you can improve. If you improved crafting skills then there would have to be new craftable items. If mages improved their mage skills then there would proably have to be new spells for them. This kinda falls under the "making the player more powerful" thing though. The same goes for increasing fighter/rogue weapon skills. They would have higher AS as a result and therefor do more damage against tougher enemies.

I like the idea of raising the level cap by 1%, mainly because I still want a monk with stealth, traps and locks :) However it also might make players too powerful. I havent played PD where remort is possible so I dont know how much effect having a 200% class cap really has.

I guess my overall point is that leveling after the cap shouldn't make your char more powerful, but it does need to benefit you in some way. Here's some ideas:

*Upgrade the + on a weapon or piece of armor by 1 or maybe by 2 for stat items.
*Recieve a large amount of a rare or hard to aquire item.
*Recieve a weapon or piece of armor, tinted and with a good +
*Recieve an artifact
*Recieve a bonus to a skill as long as it doesnt violate the 125% class cap or raise the skill to over 100%. The amount of skill bonus should be lesser if the skill % is high and greater if the skill % is low.

I say the player should not choose which benefit they get, it should be completely random. As far as which weapon/armor is upgraded or which skill is increased, that should be random as well.

Also another idea: If you want 100 to be the lvl cap then take all the players that are over lvl 100 and drop them to lvl 1. Let them keep their experience but reset their stats to 25,25,25 plus 5 in a stat according to their class. Then they can level back up to 100. 100 is a decent lvl for a cap, encourages partying for harder mobs. The only reason I was kinda down about the cap before is because I had nothing to gain by playing my character except for drops and the fun of playing. Being able to gain something for leveling after the cap, even if it isn't much, would be good.
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Postby Grodst » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:47 pm

Hmmm, how about a bonus to your guild once you lvl at limit...one time thing non-transferable if you leave guild. Khelben mentions WoW's guild system as a good thing to keep folks playing....

This would not be enhancement to fighting ability, and sure might bring guilds back as a social benefit.
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Postby Ulric » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:39 am

Finally, a cap is not there to make all players equal - it is there to keep them from being too powerful for the game.


I was not implying that the cap was created to make all players equal I was saying that the end result is that it makes players equal.

What does it mean to be too powerful for the game?

I am lvl 140 fighter with a claymore +8 I can not hit a balron for more then 25 dmg since the dmg bug was fixed. I could use some potions and other things to kill a single balron but there are many places that have a lot of balrons. I avoid these places like the plague.

Do to the fact that I have a wife and 3 kids I am not able to play for long durations of time. I play for 20-30 minute at a time. Then I must do my Daddy Duties. Partying to make it though a tough dungeon does not work well when you can not play for long time periods. So I tend to only do places I can do by myself with out be kill instantly.

I know that the game is meant to be more multi-player but I can not do that. So as the game moves foward I am endanger of being stuck repeating the same places forever because I will never be able to handle the more difficult places by myself. At that point I will only be grinding for grindings sake and maybe to I will find 1 or 2 arties every year.

Why can't I kill a shadow lord with 1 hit of my bare fist?
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Postby Keighn » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:21 am

Ulric wrote:Why can't I kill a shadow lord with 1 hit of my bare fist?


Is that even possible?
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Postby Ulric » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:28 am

Not with a lvl cap.
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Postby Keighn » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:19 am

I say the player should not choose which benefit they get, it should be completely random. As far as which weapon/armor is upgraded or which skill is increased, that should be random as well.


It is easy to get around that; just simply carry the item you want to be upgraded with you when you go to the shrine and leave everything else at home or in the bank or guild.
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Postby Ulric » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:27 am

Well it could add a random effect. So if you wanted to have your ebony crook +8 to be upgraded. It could get upgraded to a ebony crook +8 +1str :)
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Postby Keighn » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:37 am

Would it be too impromptu to post a thread in the general forums for an online gaming conversation about levels, grinding, with opinions and comments from the playerbase? I'm thinking that if an organized time when people can come on and talk "in real time" then perhaps there can be more headway made on this topic. Maybe a large amount of the old player base will log on and express a few opinions that they might not on the forums.
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Diminishing Returns

Postby scglass » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:33 am

Although I'm a big fan of NG I still think there is significant merit in a level progression system, so I want to work through some ideas that allow the level system to be retained, allows players to level grind with slowly diminishing benefit but which doesn't smack them with a "glass ceiling" at a hard numerical limit.

All of these ideas are based on the mechanic of "diminishing returns", i.e. you get a reducing benefit for each increase in a characters attributes. Rather than present the formulas as mine, this guy has already worked out a realtively simplistic model for deriving diminishing returns for his MUD - specifically to address this issue. http://lostsouls.org/grimoire_diminishing_returns


1. Diminishing Returns on derived Benefits
Key points
    no level cap
    stats increase per level unchanged
    derived benefits from stats (hp, mana, etc) have diminishing returns
Pros
    tapers off the grind without forcing the players into a "glass ceiling"
    lower levels relatively unchanged
    higher levels still improve you, but to a lesser degree over time
    ultra high levels give only marginal improvements
    item that give stat bonuses also subject to diminishing returns
Cons
    adds a formula to the system
    may not work for all stat derived values
    needs tweaking to not prematurely disadvantage mid-range levels
2. Diminishing Returns on Stats
Key points
    no level cap
    stats increase subject to diminishing returns
    derived benefits unchanged
Pros
    as above
    don't have to locate and change every stat derived formula
Cons
    as above
    would require fractional / decimal points in stats
    items that give stat bonuses can have an amplified effect on derived values

Personally I'm swinging towards the diminishing returns from benefits, but that is just personal preference. The idea can also be worked into the skills cap.

Addendum - Increasing Skills cap based on level with diminishing returns
Key points
skills cap starts at 100% at level 1
skills cap raises with diminishing returns
ideas on the values:
Code: Select all
level skills cap
1   100
5   105
10   110
20   115
40   120
80   125
160   130
320   135
640   140

Rather than bitch the specific numbers, lets work the idea. :sadpanda:
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Re: Diminishing Returns

Postby eggmceye » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:36 am

yes yes yes quality post

scglass wrote:2. Diminishing Returns on Stats
Key points
    no level cap
    stats increase subject to diminishing returns
    derived benefits unchanged
Pros
    as above
    don't have to locate and change every stat derived formula
Cons
    as above
    would require fractional / decimal points in stats
    items that give stat bonuses can have an amplified effect on derived values


Awesome - now I just gotta work out the formula!

Addendum - Increasing Skills cap based on level with diminishing returns
Key points
skills cap starts at 100% at level 1
skills cap raises with diminishing returns
ideas on the values:
Code: Select all
level skills cap
1   100
5   105
10   110
20   115
40   120
80   125
160   130
320   135
640   140



This is good too. This could work in conjunction with expanding your class cap by medding at certain shrines too I guess.
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