broken combat

Moderator: EUO Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
eggmceye
hello
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

broken combat

Post by eggmceye »

Jaral, I didn't ignore your post - rather I was annoyed by it ( I hate being told I'm wrong or that I've fucked up, tho I'm wrong and fuck up all the time!) - Don't feel bad!

Anyway I'm now convinced combat is broken just from me playing on PD. I'll explain how it is meant to work. I haven't done a full analysis on what is actually happening tho.

Firstly it is based on dnd 3rd ed d20.

ThAC0 (AS) is based on your skill in the weap of choice, + other factors like lvl, purple pots etc etc. Details.

AC (Def) for players is primarily based on armour. Def from med & heavy is scaled down to your % in fighter skills. This is a bit of a leap but it works.

Attack roll works the same: roll 1-20. BUT (read on!)

... there is no 'missing'. Instead of a chance to hit (based on thac0 (AS in EUO)) minus AC (defense) - there is always a hit and the damage done is scaled down to (as-def)/20.

actual euo source code below :--;:

Code: Select all

   // now scale the damage down according to def-as
   int diff=defender->get_ac()-attacker->get_thaco();
   float scale=1.1-diff/20;
   if(scale>1.1)scale=1.1f;
   else if(scale<0.1)scale=0.1f;

   damage=ROUND(damage*scale);
   if(damage==0) damage=1;
Eg;

attacker AS is 20
defender ac is 10

diff is 10. 10/20 means damage is 50%.

Isn't it true that you need the same AS as the defence of the target to get a >1dmg hit in? That is meant to be the idea. If you have more than 20AS than the target's AC then you should do 100% damage (110% dmg actually if you look at the rotten code).

I honestly can't remember why I took out missing and made it hit all the time.

I think this is the main flaw:
Damage is calculated independently of skill in weapon. AND damage gets bonus from high stats. So you might be up for really high damage anyway.
Aristarch
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:10 pm
Location: Bialystok, Poland

Post by Aristarch »

If I get it right, I shouldn't be able to hit Jacek who had ~12 def for 8-14 dmg with my crook and mine 8 AS?

Actually that example of difference of 10 between AS and AC results in 1.1 - 0.5 = 60% damage.
Defence is often not an integer, why isn't the difference float type?

Also, what the formula for calculating damage currently looks like?

Are you planning on refurnishing this system with fixes or implementing something different? I think
Foul beast approaches?!
Jaral
LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Portland, OR

Post by Jaral »

My criticism is meant to be strictly constructive. If I ever resort to whining and moaning, feel free to ban me immediately. :D

I believe also there is a set % damage reduction from armor? I remember hitting TC for 75% or so of his hps with a glass weapon when he was using adam heavy armor, and killing outright if he was naked.

Damage from weapon skills: Maybe something on the order of 25%+ (weapon skill/75.0)? Note this requires a staves skill be implemented for mages or they will never hit over 25%. Or actually, that may be appropriate. Actually again... AS is calculated partly from weapon skill (I think), so damage(when actually scaled) isn't really independent of weapon skill.

Damage from stats: Actually When I first started playing I was surprised at how slowly damage and speed increased from stats. Most games I have seen have a fairly rapid increase in combat abilities from stats. Having damage increase from stats is logical though. It makes sense that getting hit by someone with 200 str will hurt more than 25 str. Not sure what you could do here.. You could have a diminishing returns system: +1 for 10, +2 for 20, +3 for 40, +4 for 80, etc. This would have the effect that lower level players would gain power very quickly (or quicker than they do currently) but there would be little difference between high level players, since having 50% more str might only be +1 or 2 dmg more. This would mean that lvl 300+ PD players were no longer gods... poor TC.
User avatar
Keighn
Stop posting already --;
Posts: 5509
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:13 am
Location: Hey.... pssttt Back in Orgeon

Post by Keighn »

I posted something about the difference in various armours as well:

UA
Light
Medium
Heavy

Say I had 90 def and was fighting Insects (or some such mob).

If I was wearing heavy armour I'd probably get the missed result as the damn thing couldn't hurt me.

If I was wearing UA it would always do at least 1 point of damage and i'd never see the 'missed' result.

So obviously the degree of armour type has an effect in the game regardless of what your AC says.

I'm pretty sure when i fight shadow warriors that I always take 2-3 damage wearing UA while if I had heavy armour I'd be lucky to take 1 damage. These are just some things I've noticed on my own.
ZUPS!!!!
User avatar
eggmceye
hello
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by eggmceye »

Dunno if it was mentioned in this thread but Jaral found a most embarassing bug looking at my measy 10 lines of c++ (god knows what ppl would find looking at the other 60k lines)

Damage was either 1dmg or 1.1* max damage - has been for the last couple of years. Fixing it now.

So just for the record:

Once you have the same AS as the Def of the target you get max damage out of your wep.

If your AS is 10 less than the def, you get 50% damage.

If your as is 20+less than the def, you do the bare min 1dmg.
User avatar
Keighn
Stop posting already --;
Posts: 5509
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:13 am
Location: Hey.... pssttt Back in Orgeon

Post by Keighn »

How much fun/time would it take you to make it like this:

Once you have the same AS as the Def of the target you get max damage out of your wep.

If your AS is 5 less than the def, you get 75% damage.

If your AS is 10 less than the def, you get 50% damage.

If your AS is 15 less than the def, you get 25% damage.

If your AS is 18 less than the def, you get 10% damage.

If your AS is 19 less than the def, you get 5% damage.

If your as is 20+less than the def, you do the bare min 1dmg.

On perhaps an oppisite side:
If your AS is 5 MORE than the def, you get 105% damage.

If your AS is 10 MORE than the def, you get 110% damage.

If your AS is 15 MORE than the def, you get 125% damage.

If your AS is 20 MORE than the def, you get 150% damage.

If your AS is 25 MORE than the def, you get 175% damage.

If your as is 30 MORE than the def, you do 200% damage.

Though, I suppose that might screw up critical hits and the usage of special attacks.
ZUPS!!!!
User avatar
eggmceye
hello
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by eggmceye »

the first half is done, the 2nd half - well players are doing enough damage as it is I think
Jaral
LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Portland, OR

Post by Jaral »

Er Keighn lemme put the little code snippet into plain(?) english.

When attacker AS and defender DEF are equal, max dmg. For every point AS is less than DEF, 5% reduction in dmg . Once you have 20 pts less AS you are at minumum dmg(20x5%=100% reduction) and there is no more reduction.

Unless of course you make an integer division error, but thats beside the point. Gawd we love ya egg. :D

Can't wait to go try this out, tho it probably means draggies are now very hard to kill and balrons are completely out of the question... MINOTAURS TILL LEVEL 400!!

EDIT: Actually drags are no big deal with 40as hehe.. ballys I only hit for 50% though, despite the fact that I am almost lvl 270.
Last edited by Jaral on Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aristarch
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:10 pm
Location: Bialystok, Poland

Post by Aristarch »

Doesn't the combat system with the fix favour mages now? Fighters and rogues have a harder time now while mages still do the same - and playing mage was already easier before.
Foul beast approaches?!
User avatar
eggmceye
hello
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:55 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by eggmceye »

Aristarch wrote: and playing mage was already easier before.
That is surely a matter of opinion!

Start a new thread for a serious class debate - if there needs to be one!
Ulric
buying vamp LS of any kind +5
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 7:17 am

Post by Ulric »

Keighn wrote:.On perhaps an oppisite side:
If your AS is 5 MORE than the def, you get 105% damage.

If your AS is 10 MORE than the def, you get 110% damage.

If your AS is 15 MORE than the def, you get 125% damage.

If your AS is 20 MORE than the def, you get 150% damage.

If your AS is 25 MORE than the def, you get 175% damage.

If your as is 30 MORE than the def, you do 200% damage.

Though, I suppose that might screw up critical hits and the usage of special attacks.
I like the idea of a little more damage when you are much str then the mob but 200% way off the charts. What about:

If your AS is 10 MORE then def, you get 105% damage.

If your AS is 20 MORE then def, you get 110% damage.

Plus 110% is what was the max before.
User avatar
Keighn
Stop posting already --;
Posts: 5509
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:13 am
Location: Hey.... pssttt Back in Orgeon

Post by Keighn »

Well, I suppose I should have wrote it more like this:

If your AS is 10 MORE than the def, you get 105% damage.

If your AS is 20 MORE than the def, you get 110% damage.

If your AS is 30 MORE than the def, you get 125% damage.

If your AS is 40 MORE than the def, you get 150% damage.

If your AS is 50 MORE than the def, you get 175% damage.

If your as is 60 MORE than the def, you do 200% damage

But, egg is right that there's probably enough damage going on out there.

I might take that offer on starting a topic about class balance. However my idea of balance would be simply certain lesser mobs with extremely high magic resistance:

Example: A whirlwind - DEF 70 MR2000 hp:200 dmg1-2 xp:something not worth fighting. Tis primarily a mob to annoy and bug players. I could forsee an enemy spellcaster with the ability to summon a little whirlwind a pain in the ass but only for a short term.

A magic wielding one 'Eldritch Mist' that is annoying: DEF 70 MR2000 hp100 dmg 1-2 int:5 spell:grav por and/or og depending. I'm not sure how the whole int thing works with enemy mob spells so I'm just guessing a low int would make said spells do very low damage.
ZUPS!!!!
Jaral
LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Portland, OR

Post by Jaral »

Start a new thread for a serious class debate - if there needs to be one!
Kinda think he meant you should start a NEW thread about it if you wanted to discuss it. :smoke: Having whirlwinds sounds kinda fun if they had about 5hp, but that belongs more in the easter egg thread than here I think. How does that effect class balance?
User avatar
Keighn
Stop posting already --;
Posts: 5509
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:13 am
Location: Hey.... pssttt Back in Orgeon

Post by Keighn »

Aye, I should start a creature/mob thread. When one gets started I'll simply cut/paste that there and remove the content on this thread.

How about if I discuss blocking/parry/riposte/dodging? They are sort of on topic with the combat discussion. That along with criticals/specials/special initial damage/and just raw new ideas for combat.
ZUPS!!!!
User avatar
scglass
Tune in next time & see how they do it.
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:28 am
Contact:

Post by scglass »

I have the math for how WoW does its melee, missile and spell combat. It allows for all the usual tricks like parry, dodge, criticals, while also allowing damage mitigation from armor.

A little teaser on melee combat, lifted from WoWWiki, which while being unofficial, appears to be accurate:

One roll is made in the range 1-100
A lookup table determines if the roll resulted in:
  • Miss
    Dodge
    Parry
    Glancing Blow (only players and pets versus mobs)
    Block
    Critical
    Crushing Blow (mobs only)
    ordinary hit
I'm currently digging through the mangos source code to see if they implemented their attack code this way.
User avatar
Keighn
Stop posting already --;
Posts: 5509
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:13 am
Location: Hey.... pssttt Back in Orgeon

Post by Keighn »

What were all the specials in EFBD again? I guess I could just take a look.

----EDIT----

Ah, here we go; I think:

EFBD Class Discussion
ZUPS!!!!
User avatar
Keighn
Stop posting already --;
Posts: 5509
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:13 am
Location: Hey.... pssttt Back in Orgeon

Post by Keighn »

Did something change in combat besides AS vs DEF. Specifically, monsters mobbing you. I noticed they don't dance like they did but rather swarm you. Maybe that was an isolated incident.
ZUPS!!!!
Aristarch
Post in swahili or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:10 pm
Location: Bialystok, Poland

Post by Aristarch »

Hm, 'dancing' was fixed some time ago I believe - it was something about chokepoint checking.
Foul beast approaches?!
Post Reply