Lets talk about class identity!

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Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:54 am

Okay so im sure this has been posted in the past but with the influx of users coming back i think it may be a great time to talk about it!

So each class has its own identity for the most part and that is great, it is what contributes to gameplay replayablility! I was thinking all day today of what could take class identity to the next level and make things even the most niche things relevant to everyday gameplay.

There is a single class that comes to mind when you try to think about enhancing the class making it more of a threat and that is monks. Monks have a GREAT kit for survivability and probably the highest skill cap to play in the game with their kit. The only thing i have to complain about at all with monks is their inability to handle aoe situations. They have great single target, they are safe to play (from a PD perspective), and arguably the coolest set of abilities in the game. Their inability to clear in a aoe type of situation is literally what keeps this from being my favorite class in the game. So what can we do about it, well, you have things like diablo 3s rendition of a monk ability like exploding palm, (sets a debuff on a target, can be set on multiple enemies, when you kill a target it blows up and can set off a chain reaction dealing damage to everyone in the area.), also in diablo 3 they have things like fist of fury or rising sun kick where they simply go into an "enrage" and for a second or two hit all targets around them. You have weapon art from games like dark souls 3 (my favorite franchise of all time!) where you can do like an aoe arm flail and hit enemies around you in a circle, or you can hit enemies that are not only infront of your face but also the ones behind them! There are many other examples of things like this in other games that would keep monks class identity true to itself while giving the class that extra 'umph'! :D

Fighters have been long thought as some of the most sturdy axe weilding crazy bastards in the game. I personally love fighters, there isnt much i can say bad about them. The addition to wallop gives them just that hair more aoe without it being super broken! I think fighters kit based around all of their different weapon type is spot on, enough variety to keep me bashing skulls for hours on end without feeling bored or underwhelmed. The only thing i would suggest as ive seen it brought up recently again is a "like" stat build for all of the fighter weapons. Just make it 75% str 25% dex or 85% str 15% dex and call it a day! :cool:

Mages! The boomy class! When i want some mindless aoe clear or when im on a conference call at work and im trying to act like im paying attention, i play a mage. Mages and necros are in a class of their own for clear, throw on a vamp staff and just afk your mind as you mash vog and xc. Personally i dont mind the simple sort of "rotation" that they have BUT it for sure can lead to fatigue of playing such a simple class as you grind for hours. I honestly think mages are totally fine, maybe diversity of spells somewhat but for me, i think they are mindless, brainless fun. :smile:

Necros are on a totally different playing field than every other class. Necros are the "harder" mage like to play, only due to some wonky positioning and such you need to have at times but for the most part, hail of bones, corpse explosion, hail, hail, hail, hail, win. Single target, summon skellys, hail of bones, hail, hail, hail, etc. I dont necessarily think that there is anything wrong with necros either. Most people complain about the clear speed of necros and that it may be too fast or whatever but lets be honest, the only people who are complaining about current patch necros are the ones who arent building one. :roll:

Rogues: This is one that i used to absolutely love, my first 1k on pd all the way through.....until i played something else. I absolutely love the idea of rogues, being sneaky pirate man is awesome....until you get one shot by a heroic dragon, xcing you as you come out of stealth. I think they are a fun class to play but in regards to surviability, every other class has SOMETHING. Monks have stoneform and a legion of other cooldowns, fighters are just downright basically unkillable, mages can just vsl or blink away, necros have the inate health increase form bone armor types and lets be honest, in an aoe situation with a vamp staff, its basically impossible for a necro to die. Rogues deal some crazy ass damage, and because of this they naturally should be more squishy than even a monk but to be honest i have an easier time surviving with a mage than a rogue. As for class fantasy monks and rogues are spot on butttttt they need a button. Some sort of oh shit button that isnt an sl scroll. haha

I love this game, i always have, always will. I love the diversity but i think we can make the class identity even deeper if we got some input! Maybe im crazy and putting way too much thought in it but this is the time for opinions!

[ps, i did not even revise or edit this at all, took me too long to type for that shit, you get the point.] X-D
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Zilverlight » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:20 am

Hey Azalynn! I'm really glad you posted about this. Ruez and I have been having a few debates about a couple of the classes and I had been giving thought to trying to understand not only the current class identity, but what identity is WANTED for each class. I'd like to go through and give another perspective on some of your ideas and concerns.

Monks:
Azalynn wrote:The only thing i have to complain about at all with monks is their inability to handle aoe situations.

I definitely agree that monks really have no way to deal with groups of enemies easily like some of these other classes. I do, however, feel that they don't need much added for AoE capabilities to be useful. Off the top of my head I can think of one easy way to give this to a monk: VOG on Hydra Aspect. This may result in the Hydra Aspect circle being changed so that you get it at a later level, but that shouldn't be a difficult fix imo. This would give the monk the opportunity to deal damage to more than just single target without causing them to become OP. I would also recommend having the damaging aspects (Hydra, Drake...) deal damage based on overall stats instead of int. (I think this might already be true, but not sure)

Azalynn wrote:the highest skill cap to play in the game with their kit.

Definitely true. I typically spam the crap out of Sleeping Fist every third hit just for the bonus damage (I'm kinda a newb at monks :oops: ) I can't imagine the monks that are trying to balance throat strike on mages, sleeping fist on additional targets to reduce damage, keeping your finger over stone form for survivability and focusing down specific targets... It does seem to have the highest skill cap compared to the rest.

Class Identity: Frontline Melee DPS (Some Off-Tank capabilities)

Fighter:
Azalynn wrote:The only thing i would suggest as ive seen it brought up recently again is a "like" stat build for all of the fighter weapons. Just make it 75% str 25% dex or 85% str 15% dex and call it a day!

Agreed. Fighters are in a perfect position. Having the identity of front line fighter, capable of surviving the rough of the fight with tank stance, or dishing out some good damage with berserk stance. I feel very little else needs to be done to fighters, but this would be that very little.

Class Identity: Frontline Tank/Off-Tank Bruiser

Mage:
Azalynn wrote:I honestly think mages are totally fine, maybe diversity of spells somewhat but for me, i think they are mindless, brainless fun.

I somewhat agree. They actually do have a variety of spells that allow for multiple situations. However, late game usually turns into exactly what you mentioned: Vampy staff and VOG for groups or XC for single target. They really don't require much attention except knowing when to VSL so you don't die. They are in a good fit though, everything they need is gained from Intelligence and with good gear they are suited for whatever purpose a party needs, or just soloing.

Class Identity: Glass Cannon Backline Caster

Necromancer:
Azalynn wrote:hail of bones, corpse explosion, hail, hail, hail, hail, win. Single target, summon skellys, hail of bones, hail, hail, hail, etc.

Azalynn wrote:the only people who are complaining about current patch necros are the ones who arent building one.

This is the class I will disagree with you on a bit. Current patch necros are powerful casters, but take a step back and look at what they were intended for: Melee, from hexblades. Dex/Int based hybrid, from 90/10 dex/str for hexblades and int for magic. And pretty much anything death related.
Necromancers actually change roles as their levels progress. Early on, you only have summons. Your circle 2 spell only gives you other options for a melee weapon, circle 3 and you can hold down single target for a few seconds, leeching life, but cannot recast on same target and in serious danger if facing a group. Circle 4 spells, you can sacrifice a corpse for more HP and cause mobs you kill to explode. All of these spells lead to one conclusion: Early level necromancers are melee spellcasters. You'd have to spec your stats for Dex/Str to deal damage without simply casting summon undead and standing back with limited casting. It isn't until you get Death Missile that you can start putting points into int and using it for something. Late game Necromancers turn into casters simply because hexblades are so weak. You can't even really make a full hexblades Necromancer because you require higher intelligence for the specials, or else they're useless. They are the only class that requires all 3 stats, and 2 of those in balance.
As for the "hail hail hail" You know a class is far from balanced when you can make one change to only one spell in their entire kit, and the class is then useless. If the entire identity of the class is Hail of Bones, there's something wrong with everything else. Necromancers were the newest addition to EUO (not counting Druids as they aren't out yet) and of course will still require fleshing out the class to make it a perfect fit.
As for the complaints, what most Necromancers aren't understanding is the complaints are due to the intense lag spikes when hunting with Necromancers. You simply can't play effectively when hunting with them, and multiple players have had to be kicked out of the party and sidelined simply because they couldn't play the game in the vicinity of a Necromancer without freezing for entire fights. There are just too many HoB AoE's on the screen for the game to handle. That's all it is, simply put.

Class Identity: Melee Support Caster (Early), AoE DPS Caster (Late)

Rogue:
Azalynn wrote:I think they are a fun class to play but in regards to surviability, every other class has SOMETHING.

I agree! And so does Onyxt. Here's an idea he posted. Perfect for this situation.
Onyxt wrote:Nox Wis - Coats rogue weapons in poison for 5 minutes. Similar to snake aspect for monks. Requires shortswords, foils, and ranged at 100.

Quas Sanct - A vanish in smoke ability thats usable one every 10 minutes. Requires 100 stealth.

Omnidescent wrote:the smoke bomb ability is AoE, as in every party member in a 4x4 tile range turns invisible, might be a great addition to rogue.


These are great ideas that would give Rogues that slight advantage in survivability. As for class identity though, I feel rogues perfectly suit the meta. High damage glass cannon melee dps. They do have some variety with Ranged and Foils, although most rogues simply use dual shortswords. Another player had mentioned an idea of Rogues having increased DPS (not backstab damage though) when attacking targets that are focused on another player. This would help get rogues out of the "run, hide, backstab, run, hide, backstab..." mechanic that is very popular, and into more of a traditional rogue melee dps role.

Class Identity: Glass Cannon Melee DPS

Priests:

Honestly, an easy class to identify. Healers have always been one of two types: Vulnerable Spellcaster or Tanky Melee Cleric. It appears Priests in EUO are going more for the Tanky Melee Cleric, but I do have opinions on it myself. Block should be available to Priests. If they're going to be filling the role of a Frontline Tank Support, they should have the skills to best suit this role. I do still feel that they can very easily fit a role of Backline Support Caster though. Keeping the tank and dps alive, tossing out debuffs and buffs like candy... At the moment, I feel this class is very well balanced and is well suited for the roles it can play.

Class Identity: Frontline Tank Support
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:09 am

Zilverlight wrote:Honestly, an easy class to identify. Healers have always been one of two types: Vulnerable Spellcaster or Tanky Melee Cleric. It appears Priests in EUO are going more for the Tanky Melee Cleric, but I do have opinions on it myself. Block should be available to Priests. If they're going to be filling the role of a Frontline Tank Support, they should have the skills to best suit this role. I do still feel that they can very easily fit a role of Backline Support Caster though. Keeping the tank and dps alive, tossing out debuffs and buffs like candy... At the moment, I feel this class is very well balanced and is well suited for the roles it can play.

Class Identity: Frontline Tank Support

I know my opinion is a little bias just because i generally play exclusively PD and i look at the game from a perspective of a level 1000 but, priests ability end game is extremely low. Yes, they are a mock style of fighter at that end, BUT i do think that if their magic abilities hit harder, we would see more caster priests. In almost every other game i prefer playing a support type role and if this became real for EUOs priests then i would absolutely end up leveling and playing a pure priest. Even if they had to have some sort of staff (or even if blessed maces didnt slow down casts and hit just like a staff) it would be a more viable class to be playing.

That being said from a PD perspective, mulitclassing is something that is 100% normal and natural to character progression unless youre doing the "hardmode" challenge of not remorting. This also means that 90% of classes are part priest. I have no idea how that would effect how priests would need to be tuned but it may be an issue with scaling. It would be tough to balance for reg and PD alike.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:11 am

Ooooo, that being said about monks tho, if their damage with their abilities with hydra and yeti scaled with STATS just like the enchants do, think even that would be MASSIVE for monks clear. Thats probably the easiest and simplest fix. That would be suuuper dope! :)
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Zilverlight » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:46 pm

Zilverlight wrote:Monks:
...I would also recommend having the damaging aspects (Hydra, Drake...) deal damage based on overall stats instead of int.


:roll: :LAUGHING OUT LOUD LIKE A MORON:
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:02 am

My bad, totally looked over that haha. But its a damn good idea! I think that would make monks actually able to keep up, well better atleast clear speed wise!
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Zilverlight » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am

I agree. Weapon enchants and non - caster abilities should be based off full stats not only int. I'm pretty sure he's already changed several abilities like blood bolt and I know weapon enchantments were most recent.

I think necromancer's hexblades abilities should be based on full stats as well. They simply can't balance out 3 stats (str/dex for blades and int for magic) that way they could fill two separate rolls instead of one.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:09 am

Zilverlight wrote:I agree. Weapon enchants and non - caster abilities should be based off full stats not only int. I'm pretty sure he's already changed several abilities like blood bolt and I know weapon enchantments were most recent.

I think necromancer's hexblades abilities should be based on full stats as well. They simply can't balance out 3 stats (str/dex for blades and int for magic) that way they could fill two separate rolls instead of one.

He has! Wallop for fighters with gathering large groups with bloodbolt as the preferred ability to use (now has some really nice scaling) plus my BR thundercracker increases clear speed immensely. I do think it is a step in the right direction.

I cannot give a valid opinion of hexblades seeing i havent only play tested it for a solid 30 minutes and then bailed off of it because it was terrible. I will have to do a little more exploring with the variation of the class. Its a super cool idea but its just super underwhelming compared both to classic rogues and caster necros from that i have played but, ill have to give them a shot and educate myself more on it.

A cool seperate idea ( totally based on Pontiff from Dark Souls 3, or the Dancers swords ) they are int based, one light, one dark, magic swords. They do damage based on your intelligence but just like DS, in EUO you wouldnt be building pure int and if you did, youd get wrecked on every level. But i think its a cool idea having a melee spec based on intelligence but the issue is where are they going to get the hp from not being a strength based character, especially on pd! :?
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:57 pm

this is a good thread, thanks guys. I've read it a couple of times. I like the thoughtful, respectful and even intellectual tone. You've put more thought into the posts than I have into designing any of the classes :D I've made some notes so I might as well ramble on about what I think. Interestly I didn't write at all about 'class identity' - more about design. Class identity seems to be real MMORPG thing and I've only ever put halfassed effort into making EUO a MMORPG rather than a MUD.

Fighters:
this is the oldest class, the original, the simply 'lets go kill some stuff in a multi player dungeon', ctrl-dir to attack, no brainer design. From 1998. Then World of warcraft comes a long and fighters in other games are slightly fancier. In all rpgs I knew till then fighters where simply whacking stuff. They did nothing special in the ultimas, and in gold box DnD - which are my two primary sources for game design when I started. Then the other classes come along and suddenly fighters became (relatively) boring & slow. Long story short, they are now 15 years (counting from 2003 when euo went live) of revisions, starting with tacked on specials, tacked on charge, tacked on wallop, etc. It's weird hearing how people think they are somewhat good. to me they feel like a dog's breakfast. They have no top down design whatsoever. I am slowly starting to agree that they need a single stat spread build, eg 80/20 or anything, as long as it's consistent. I can't think of a good reason to not make that change. Easy to give everyone a free respec cert, and to make that change would take me 2 mins. Just gotta settle on the spread.

Mages:
the second oldest class: in fact at first there wasn't even 2 classes: just no spells, and then spells, then eveyrone became a mage with a sword. Mages have had almost no change in possibly 10 years when healing got moved to priests (and before that staff requirement, which was to make them harder to multi with fighters). To me, they don't really feel like amazing design - just a bunch of spells, but they have always worked, even nerf after nerf. I got lucky.

Rogues:
the first class with a bit of thought going into them, and when they started the concept of distinct classes appeared in euo. Not sure what to say about them now but I feel like they might need an overhaul. Maybe the smoke bomb or a feign death from WoW as panic button. Smoke bomb sounds interesting and could be fun in a party? who knows. Because this isn't a big ass game I have the liberty to just try stuff and hope not to piss too many people off.

Priests:
priests (almost) only exist to stop mages casting vm. And even then that wasn't achieved due to dual classing. I don't know what I think about them. One one level I don't like that everyone multi's into priest, but on the other I stop worrying about that and am glad people are having fun. As a pure priest they are probably boring as hell. I like how WoW did shadow priests and it would be cool to somehow emulate that here. I don't have much to say about them, except ask: what do you all think about Flam Grav?

Monks:
the first class with flavour and some thoughtful design, but yet again, a lot of lucky decisions. I don't ever think that hard about design. I slap a bunch of shit together and hope for the best. I think the monk trainer/dojo is excellent flavour and I like the way that is how one learns monk abilities. I have enjoyed playing them and multi with them. I'm not sure they need an AoE: as I don't actually know. Does every class need the option to have perfect balance between being able to solo a tough boss and fast clearance? Did anyone complain about a rogue not having an aoe? I've also read plenty of times here that monks are op - whatever that means exactly. I like them: and I would rather tart up rogues as a priority, or fix hexblades.

necromancers:
what the fuck to do with hexblades? how did that get thru QA? Since EUO seems to be about stat builds necro needing 3 stats was a dumb idea. I don't know how to fix it. And it sucks to hear HoB is still laggy: I did do two optimisations recently to it to make it faster but just bulk damage on screen is always going to slow down your network - like IVPY. I guess I could cut out some of the damage reporting on it to reduce traffic. Also, and I don't know if this is consensus opinion, but the idea that HoB is the only good thing about necros is worrisome. I did like reading about how their playstyle changes as they level up tho - that is not the worst thing, I don't think.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Comet » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:02 pm

EDIT: Sorry for Hijacking this thread with a super long post on Flam Grav

I think flam grav is really a cool spell thematically, but the main issue is it's so hard to aim. That needs to be the main fix. In theory FG is 3x3, so it can hit up to 9 targets, but in practice you don't hit more than 2, unless you manually try to tab through monsters, which is really difficult. Hitting three or more targets actually does decent damage. Currently, my unoptimized level 90pure priest hits with veno mace for around 60, while Flam Grav hits for around 35-40. Hit four targets and that's a decent 140-160 damage. Luckily, priests can clump mobs together easily with thunderclap. Unfortunately, you have to spend lots of time to aim flam grav in the middle of that group.

Usually on my priest build I cast flam grav after greater power word pain to do extra damage, and it's actually decent if you can aim it right. It synergizes pretty nicely because you can cast Flam Grav while hitting normally. Unfortunately, I've been noticing it's been getting less effective as I level. Originally it hit for as much damage as my mace, which was really effective, but now it hits for around half. It's for several reasons.

1. The scaling just isn't that great. At level 500, Flam Grav hits for around 175 base, which is... very underwhelming.

2. It has a long cooldown time and burns so much mana. I leveled at the mana shrine a bunch of times to get 200 mana for casting it. Even then, I have to equip 30 vigour to keep casting. Wearing that much vigour reduces how much MR I can have, and leveling in mana reduces my stats, lowering damage and hp. Luckily there's the mana shrine, but on PD that isn't an option, and getting 200 int would be a huge pain. In long fights I still find myself burning out of mana, which is dangerous because I can't heal. The cooldown time also hurts healing. In harder fights Flam Grav is a gamble because it means there's this long period of time where you can't cast any healing spells. It can interfere with thunderclap too. This was less of a problem when thunderclap was at 100 rage (though I am so glad it's 50 now).

3. GEAR. This is a huge reason. The 60 damage from my mace comes from a venomous 1h mace, since I rely on DOT in groups to deal damage with my priest (since priest dps is low). If it was addy, it'd hit for 75 damage, and if I was using a great maul, I'd hit for even more. Meanwhile Flam Grav is stuck at 35 damage. Weapon tints only affect spell damage with staves, and no priest uses staves. As you get better and better maces, Flam Grav is left far behind. The problem gets so much worse with attack gear. With high + atk sigils and rings you are adding a ton of damage to your mace and oops... atk gear only only applies to spells with staves. That is a ton of damage Flam Grav loses out to later. On my level 90 priest, equipping an oak shillelagh +5 bumped my flam grav damage from 35 to 75, which is incredible, outdamaging my veno mace, but sadly I can't use that and use maces at the same time.

4. It can be resisted. Yes, Flam Grav is scaled by Level, not int, but MR calculations still use int. Which means your Flam Grav can be resisted by... everything. Actually, I just did some testing and it seemed to do full damage on dragons, so maybe you can verify this? What I do know is that against MR immune creatures, Flam Grav does 0 damage. The target is completely unaffected. I don't think MR should apply with Flam Grav, honestly.

That's my opinion on Flam Grav. The idea of a Priest using maces and flam grav to deal damage is a lot more... castery than I'm used to, but maybe that would be a good change so the priest in combat isn't just a clone of fighter but weaker. I honestly think the divinity priest spells are awesome, especially thematically, but never get a chance to shine because they're overshadowed by everything else and also need tweaking (This post is too long but otherwise I would put some thoughts on the other priest spells). Making those spells more useful would make priest fun to play and make you feel like you're actually missing out on something by only going 30-40% priest for mani/xen mani.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:05 am

eggmceye wrote:Priests:
priests (almost) only exist to stop mages casting vm. And even then that wasn't achieved due to dual classing. I don't know what I think about them. One one level I don't like that everyone multi's into priest, but on the other I stop worrying about that and am glad people are having fun. As a pure priest they are probably boring as hell. I like how WoW did shadow priests and it would be cool to somehow emulate that here. I don't have much to say about them, except ask: what do you all think about Flam Grav?

Dude, you just said WoW shadow priest you you just got me super fucking hyped. There are so many things you could do with this. Yes, pure priest "fighter" is boring as hell BUT this may be an alternative playstyle for the same class. Using the same animation as corpse explosion you could do an aoe DOT, have it do tons of damage at the beginning and drop off as it ticks, over like 5 seconds or something. You could essentially be the first dot class in EUO without doing much to the class! Id 100% play caster priest. THE ONLY problem is, just like every other post i make, is super bias because i play PD. Towards the end game it would have to do insane damage to be able to be kept up with level 800+.

eggmceye wrote:Rogues:
the first class with a bit of thought going into them, and when they started the concept of distinct classes appeared in euo. Not sure what to say about them now but I feel like they might need an overhaul. Maybe the smoke bomb or a feign death from WoW as panic button. Smoke bomb sounds interesting and could be fun in a party? who knows. Because this isn't a big ass game I have the liberty to just try stuff and hope not to piss too many people off.

My answer to the whole no one said anything about rogues multi target damage is, its already insane and the potential (spammy backstab behavior) backstab damage alone is insane. You can dispatch a whole room using the ole cheese method before a fighter would clear it for sure. I mean i wouldnt complain about an increase in aoe but they are just squishy. As hell. Which i think is more of the problem than anything.

eggmceye wrote:Monks:
the first class with flavour and some thoughtful design, but yet again, a lot of lucky decisions. I don't ever think that hard about design. I slap a bunch of shit together and hope for the best. I think the monk trainer/dojo is excellent flavour and I like the way that is how one learns monk abilities. I have enjoyed playing them and multi with them. I'm not sure they need an AoE: as I don't actually know. Does every class need the option to have perfect balance between being able to solo a tough boss and fast clearance? Did anyone complain about a rogue not having an aoe? I've also read plenty of times here that monks are op - whatever that means exactly. I like them: and I would rather tart up rogues as a priority, or fix hexblades.

Like i was saying, the biggest difference is between the rogues issue (survivability) and monks (aoe) is simply rogues have backstab and can cheese rooms. Monks, cannot which is fine but they also have to take the mobs straight up. If you run into a group of 5, you have no chance at all to do aoe, it just doesnt exist. The single targets pretty sweet but rogues have higher damage (rightfully so, they are squishier) but they also can take out the whole room with only getting hit a few times. Monks have to take the whole dick the whole time haha. I am not sure im explaining the scenario (which is 99% of the time) correctly but yeah.

eggmceye wrote:necromancers:
what the fuck to do with hexblades? how did that get thru QA? Since EUO seems to be about stat builds necro needing 3 stats was a dumb idea. I don't know how to fix it. And it sucks to hear HoB is still laggy: I did do two optimisations recently to it to make it faster but just bulk damage on screen is always going to slow down your network - like IVPY. I guess I could cut out some of the damage reporting on it to reduce traffic. Also, and I don't know if this is consensus opinion, but the idea that HoB is the only good thing about necros is worrisome. I did like reading about how their playstyle changes as they level up tho - that is not the worst thing, I don't think.

Im not gonna lie to you, i have no fucking clue. Hexblades are a really cool idea, super cool actually. But they are dogshit. X-D When you get towards 1k on PD, even being a monk with your stats split, rogues as having only 33% str or mages that have 1300 base hp; splitting stats ruins something (and rightfully so its what makes classes unique). But when youre not only splitting two stats but now you are splitting 3? If that was the route you wanted to go down, they would have to do absolutely insane damage. They wouldnt survive for shit and its a rogue without backstab so cant cheese either. Cant run and do damage at the same time like caster/necro. It would just be awkward as hell to play BUT i do think its something to explore.

I do like the whole party interaction, using your full class kit but i do think there should be more based around parties. As in buffing each other, debuffing enemies, etc. It would make for some interesting hunts and better party interaction. Such as, priests could get an aoe "greater health scroll" like spell that temporarily increases your health by 25% for 5 seconds. Warriors could get a battle cry that increases movement speed by 15% and increases damage done by 20% for 10 seconds. All of these should have like 2 or 3 minute cooldowns but it would be super awesome to be going into fights like the blood queen and actually being able to kill her with 4 level 400s (PD) becauses of the interaction with each other through great use of cooldowns and such.

Ive played wow for 10 years or so and i cannot express how much i love boss fights like the queen with mechanics and coordination. I would fucking LOVE to see a dungeon thats a "raid" trash, boss like bq, trash, boss like bq, etc with 3 or 4 weapon drop per boss. I fucking love raiding in wow and if we could make anything even close to that, thats literally all i would do. haha

-Sorry for the terribly long post-
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Azalynn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:10 am

Also egg, you have to keep in mind anything i post is from a PD 1k perspective. If i get my monk to 1k and run into an epic dragon i 100% would be able to get rid of it pretty easily but it would be easier for me to kill 2 epic dragons than 4 heroic dragons. Just because i can control that situation through cc. It would take me longer to kill the 4 just purely because of me having to switch targets to even begin damaging the other 3. High end PD play is alot of kill it, before it kills you. Which is why so much aoe is needed in the end game of PD. Terribly fun class to play but there are better options. I think really its just a balance type of change. Who knows they may be insanely strong where reg caps out but for pd, when you do get to those later levels, they get passed by every other class in the game at that point. Which sucks becuase they are the coolest class in this damn game. haha :-S
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Zilverlight » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:56 am

Azalynn wrote:I do like the whole party interaction, using your full class kit but i do think there should be more based around parties. As in buffing each other, debuffing enemies, etc. It would make for some interesting hunts and better party interaction. Such as, priests could get an aoe "greater health scroll" like spell that temporarily increases your health by 25% for 5 seconds. Warriors could get a battle cry that increases movement speed by 15% and increases damage done by 20% for 10 seconds.


This is quite a good idea. The Rogue Smoke Bomb would fit perfectly into this AoE party enhancing spell.

Maybe there could also be a priest spell that was an AoE Heal. Circle 7 or 8, strength of XM but in a 5x5 AoE centered on the caster.

Comet wrote:Weapon tints only affect spell damage with staves, and no priest uses staves.


This shouldn't be difficult to change. Could simply make blessed maces act as a staff for the sake of casting.

Azalynn spoke truely. Rogues simply have outstanding single target DPS. Monks have great single target and a mix of colorful abilities to enhance gameplay. AoE might not be the most necessary, but also keep in mind that many monk abilities cannot be cast while fighting. Monks cannot heal in combat and cannot "astral walk" in combat. A lot of this must be saved for a break in the fighting. Rogues can simply walk 4 squares away and stealth to end combat.

Could Hexblades be dependent on Int for damage instead of dex? Maybe a 15/85 str/int? I guess it doesn't make too much sense. You could also do the same with Hexblades as Staves (and if you like the idea, Blessed Maces) where Hexblades count as a staff for casting purposes. This would allow the Necromancer to wield one without a reduction in their casting capabilities. This would allow for a smoother transition from early game blade wielding melee necromancer to the late game caster necromancer. If blades were dependent on Int, it would also give their specials a chance to be useful.

I don't actually use Flam Grav as a priest. The main reason for my priest is to act as a party tank. I gather all the aggro, heal myself, cast greater damage over time and watch my allies to make sure no one dies from enemy AoE. If someone else tanks, I usually stay back and heal them up while banishing clones and focusing on healing every player and keeping buffs up. They're a great class, especially for partying. Maybe just a few minor touch ups.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:49 am

so on hexblades:
I think the fatal flaw in the necro design, and this is really only just sinking in, is that hexblades are 10/90 str/dex weapon: meaning you need to waste stat points in dex right? now I could flip it to 90/10 but that means you have to waste str points when really, all the necro wants is to not put points in anything but INT. So if hexblades became (somehow) an int based damage weapon, then that would be the fix, right?

Anyway I've already tested it at home and it seems like a pretty good change. So hexblades go from being 10/90 str/dex to 10/90 str/int
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Heikki » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:58 am

Fighters:
this is the oldest class, the original, the simply 'lets go kill some stuff in a multi player dungeon', ctrl-dir to attack, no brainer design. From 1998. Then World of warcraft comes a long and fighters in other games are slightly fancier. In all rpgs I knew till then fighters where simply whacking stuff. They did nothing special in the ultimas, and in gold box DnD - which are my two primary sources for game design when I started. Then the other classes come along and suddenly fighters became (relatively) boring & slow. Long story short, they are now 15 years (counting from 2003 when euo went live) of revisions, starting with tacked on specials, tacked on charge, tacked on wallop, etc. It's weird hearing how people think they are somewhat good. to me they feel like a dog's breakfast. They have no top down design whatsoever. I am slowly starting to agree that they need a single stat spread build, eg 80/20 or anything, as long as it's consistent. I can't think of a good reason to not make that change. Easy to give everyone a free respec cert, and to make that change would take me 2 mins. Just gotta settle on the spread.


This would be awesome. So much lot new tactics.
IMO 15/85 or 20/80 would be great. As maces are 90/10.. but I don't feel that that my fighter will need so much "free boost" as AS and HP from STR.
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Heikki » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:08 am

necromancers:
what the fuck to do with hexblades? how did that get thru QA? Since EUO seems to be about stat builds necro needing 3 stats was a dumb idea. I don't know how to fix it. And it sucks to hear HoB is still laggy: I did do two optimisations recently to it to make it faster but just bulk damage on screen is always going to slow down your network - like IVPY. I guess I could cut out some of the damage reporting on it to reduce traffic. Also, and I don't know if this is consensus opinion, but the idea that HoB is the only good thing about necros is worrisome. I did like reading about how their playstyle changes as they level up tho - that is not the worst thing, I don't think.


There is now also "on trick pony" style to play this.
1) Kick STR and DEX off (DEX to 25 and STR to about 200 and then all to INT) all stats to INT.
2) Don't wear hexblades but vampyric +9 staff only. All gear + to int
3) Go to heroic Anathema and spam HoB to on spot (yeh it stacks SUPER many times with low cool down!) and almost "instakill" dragons at lvl 300!
4) Enjoy your :cheese:
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:32 pm

eggmceye wrote:
Anyway I've already tested it at home and it seems like a pretty good change. So hexblades go from being 10/90 str/dex to 10/90 str/int


I just pushed this mod out to the alpha server. Now you won't notice the stat dmg in your client stats window, as that req a patch - but the stat damage (and thaco/as bonus too) will be there in combat

maybe another thing to try is hexblades giving the tint damage bonuses to spells in the way staffs do :?
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Tink » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:22 pm

Heikki wrote:
necromancers:
what the fuck to do with hexblades? how did that get thru QA? Since EUO seems to be about stat builds necro needing 3 stats was a dumb idea. I don't know how to fix it. And it sucks to hear HoB is still laggy: I did do two optimisations recently to it to make it faster but just bulk damage on screen is always going to slow down your network - like IVPY. I guess I could cut out some of the damage reporting on it to reduce traffic. Also, and I don't know if this is consensus opinion, but the idea that HoB is the only good thing about necros is worrisome. I did like reading about how their playstyle changes as they level up tho - that is not the worst thing, I don't think.


There is now also "on trick pony" style to play this.
1) Kick STR and DEX off (DEX to 25 and STR to about 200 and then all to INT) all stats to INT.
2) Don't wear hexblades but vampyric +9 staff only. All gear + to int
3) Go to heroic Anathema and spam HoB to on spot (yeh it stacks SUPER many times with low cool down!) and almost "instakill" dragons at lvl 300!
4) Enjoy your :cheese:


You can also equip a vampyric staff of leeching, that also works. :lesson:
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby Heikki » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:50 pm

Egg wrote:Rogues:
the first class with a bit of thought going into them, and when they started the concept of distinct classes appeared in euo. Not sure what to say about them now but I feel like they might need an overhaul. Maybe the smoke bomb or a feign death from WoW as panic button. Smoke bomb sounds interesting and could be fun in a party? who knows. Because this isn't a big ass game I have the liberty to just try stuff and hope not to piss too many people off.


Nice idea.
Anyways I always felt (may years ago) rogues somehow under powered class. Nowadays enchants are based on stats and rogues get many "spell triggers" because of fast attack speed. I think that was more than welcome boost to rogues. Seems lot more balanced.
Smoke boms sounds wicked X-D.`... I cannot see it piss off people..? Maybe someone "not rogue" in pvp?
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Re: Lets talk about class identity!

Postby eggmceye » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:50 am

Tink wrote:
Heikki wrote:
There is now also "on trick pony" style to play this.
1) Kick STR and DEX off (DEX to 25 and STR to about 200 and then all to INT) all stats to INT.
2) Don't wear hexblades but vampyric +9 staff only. All gear + to int
3) Go to heroic Anathema and spam HoB to on spot (yeh it stacks SUPER many times with low cool down!) and almost "instakill" dragons at lvl 300!
4) Enjoy your :cheese:


You can also equip a vampyric staff of leeching, that also works. :lesson:



i suppose this should get nerfed somehow
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